Why did Rauno Keltanen stop recording?

[Bavarian]

But offhand, were there any American composers in the 1900's who will remain listened to [ON EDIT: correction to reflect original intent: remain more listened to] over the ages than Bernstein and Copland?

Gershwin, for his Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris

His standards will also last, along with those of Irving Berlin and the other popular composers from before World War II.

I don't know if you'd classify the movie composers as classical composers, although the local classical music station has played Korngold's music from The Adventures of Robin Hood on more than one occasion. And there are quite a few composers generally thought of as "classical" who did film work on the side.

[AldenG]

Gershwin, for his Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris

His standards will also last, along with those of Irving Berlin and the other popular composers from before World War II.

I don't know if you'd classify the movie composers as classical composers, although the local classical music station has played Korngold's music from The Adventures of Robin Hood on more than one occasion. And there are quite a few composers generally thought of as "classical" who did film work on the side.

Oh, yes, Gershwin was a huge spur-of-the-moment oversight on my part.

And even though Bernstein was original, he owes a lot to Gershwin. I was thinking about that as I listened to some of Sammy's selections. The moment when it came to mind was the characteristic pairing of violin and marimba in Candide. I don't recall anyone doing that prominently before Gershwin. Though I guess if you surveyed Mahler and other composers of epics I'm similarly unfamiliar with, chances are you'd find it.

I also found myself wondering how we would look at Bernstein today if he hadn't immersed himself in the Caribbean rhythms as Sammy mentioned. Would he have been just a Gershwin imitator? He even carried those rhythms back 200 or so years to his treatment of Candide. They say that Copland, like the popular music of the American West from which he drew so much inspiration, owed a great deal to Irish and Scottish rhythmic influences. I haven't had enough exposure to those to judge the truth of such a comment. But he also has other traits (more?) uniquely his own, maybe more so than Bernstein.

I think I have a CD or two of Korngold but haven't ended up repeatedly listening. I know I got taken in at one point by the local station when it was regularly using excerpts from John Barry's "Dances With Wolves" as bumpers. I wanted to know what it came from -- as in what symphony of Howard Hanson or someone I wasn't recognizing. (Speaking of whom, he'll certainly be remembered and perhaps critically favored; but will he be more listened to than Bernstein and Copland?) In my defense, I did actually guess my way to the truth after a few weeks, and it was exactly because of the cinematic too-bigness of it. First I thought "Out of Africa?" and when that didn't feel quite right, settled on "Dances With Wolves" and found the clips on Amazon to verify.

The thing about some of the best film composers today is that they CAN write a brief snippet that sounds like music for the ages but then they usually can't -- or don't, for whatever reason -- develop it into a substantial piece. It's like designing a beautiful original window or door but not the house it would be part of. I'm not accusing Korngold of that, it's just an observation. Almost anything that requires a fade at the start and end is not a "piece" per se, not even a miniature.

I really liked Carl Davis' score to the 1994 "Return of the Native," both the original theme and the actual folk songs. If I recall correctly, I sometimes had trouble (apart from the opening theme) distinguishing the original bits from the folk songs. Another memorable composition is Julian Nott's theme for the BBC's "Lark Rise to Candleford," though to my ears it sounds almost more Klezmer -- at least Eastern European -- than British folk song. I've seen a couple of different attempts at scoring it on cocktail napkins, sometimes partly in 7/4 or 7/8 and others cleverly using fermatas. And Geoffrey Burgon's theme for the 1981 "Brideshead Revisited" is yet another evocative bit that makes you wish it were part of a meatier whole. These all make you wonder what Elgar or particularly Vaughan-Williams might have done with such material as a starting point and an extra 50-75 years of listening to the 20th century music scene.

[sammy]

I don't know if you'd classify the movie composers as classical composers

Maybe that's just a matter of opinion - where exactly do you draw the line... some might say, film composers are not "proper" composers until they churn out a symphony or two, or until their music in general takes off in the concert halls as well as in the cinemas. Then again, as you said, some rather revered composers have composed for the film, Vaughan Williams for a start. And although it's purely speculation, one might argue that if the celluloid medium had been available earlier, who knows even the so-called great composers might well have been tempted (or invited) to try their hand in it. After all, they did compose already back then not only for opera, but also for theatre and ballet... even for the dinner table (Telemann's "Tafelmusik" ) and if the modern day film composers write full scores for full "classical" orchestras, like IIRC John Williams (not the guitarist but the other one) then why not call their music "classical music" - at least if you don't mind the thing AldenG mentioned (the "film themes" seldom are part of a more complex structure).

On the other hand, if Gordon "Sting" Sumner picks up a guitar and croons out a rendition of Schubert's "Der Leiermann" - is that classical music?



This is another reason I personally tend to avoid too rigid classifications, and try to approach music as "merely music". But for the sake of convenience, it's sometimes useful to use some degree of categorisation.

[sammy]

The moment when it came to mind was the characteristic pairing of violin and marimba in Candide. I don't recall anyone doing that prominently before Gershwin. Though I guess if you surveyed Mahler and other composers of epics I'm similarly unfamiliar with, chances are you'd find it.

Mahler was notorious for his use of "unconventional" instruments -Mein Gott I've forgotten the motor horn! - there's a xylophone/glockenspiel in the 6th symphony for example (and cowbells)... maybe already in the 1st movement, IIRC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT22BZ5gGbU

...or at least here, in the very beginning of this "section" (it's been cut up for Youtube )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgIHtCl9fes

It's also true that Mahler, Stravinsky et al have often been used as a model to make film music by... and have been used in films, too. Luciano Visconti's "Death in Venice" used Mahler's "Adagietto" from the 5th symphony to great effect.

Didn't Bernstein sort of start a Mahler revival back then in 50's/60's or do I remember wrong?

Anyway it would also be hard to imagine the typical horror/action movie soundtracks of today if it wasn't for Stravinsky's hammering score for Rite of Spring...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFjjGud4QLY

...or Holst's Mars, Bringer of War. Star Wars, anyone?

[tuulen]

...Remember it was you who said that an ET piano sounds somehow "wrong" or "sour". Doesn't that sort of beg the question whether this "wrongness" or "sourness" could be experienced as unpleasant by a discerning listener?

You can argue about it until you're blue in the face, but the questions "is X objectively and by definition unpleasant" and "do you find X somehow unpleasant" are two different things, and a very simple "yes" or "no" will easily do for an answer to the latter

You have earned a simple answer, sir, now that I have already given a number of disclaimers about my perspective, and I can answer "no" to your question about finding ET unpleasant, for ET can allow musical things to happen which JI cannot allow, and I appreciate that ability.

My earlier comment about a properly tuned piano sounding sour was said more to highlight the perceived tonal quality differences between ET and JI, and not meant to say that ET is unacceptable or unpleasant. The trouble in describing the differences between ET and JI is like the trouble in describing the differences between two colors, or even to describe what one color looks like. There once was a time when I could have given a fairly well qualified explanation about the tonal frequency differences between ET and JI, but that sort of explanation is worthless in an applied or a practical sense. For instance, saying that standard Concert Pitch is defined by the tone A @ 440 Hz gives us absolutely no idea as to what the tone A actually sounds like, and, similarly, describing the differences between ET and JI in such technical terms says nothing, either. So, a description of ET tuning as sounding sour RELATIVE to JI tuning is about as practical of a description as I can think of.

[AldenG]

And although it's purely speculation, one might argue that if the celluloid medium had been available earlier, who knows even the so-called great composers might well have been tempted (or invited) to try their hand in it.

Yes, didn't Balzac more or less quip that sex, autoerotic or otherwise, detracted from literary output?

Who knows what musical masterpieces we might have lost if composers had enjoyed the option of composing for the cinema 100-200 years earlier?

For instance, what if Holst had written the soundtrack for Star Wars? Oh, I know, wait -- some might say he did. But seriously, what if he had been busy doing that, and some director had said we need to cut another 17 measures out of Mars and we're gonna delete the Venus scene...

And the starlets, OMG the starlets. "I say, Jeeves, bring me another starlet, would you? This one's gone a bit stale." How's a man to get any work done?

[sammy]

For instance, what if Holst had written the soundtrack for Star Wars? Oh, I know, wait -- some might say he did. But seriously, what if he had been busy doing that, and some director had said we need to cut another 17 measures out of Mars and we're gonna delete the Venus scene...

A likely scenario. But that has been known to happen occasionally, even before the age of cinema... some tycoon or patron saying to the composer "I don't like it" and the latter retiring to his lair to revise the whole thing. At least Bruckner used to retouch his symphonies because of criticism.

It's becoming increasingly hard for us to imagine what life was like before cinema, radio, recordings, and all the other trappings that we take for granted and that make it posible for us to listen to great music at the drop of a hat. So in that regard it doesn't make much sense to try and imagine what would have happened if Schubert had been commissioned to compose a score for "4 Winterreise and a Funeral"... it would be anachronistic to the extreme.

[sammy]

You have earned a simple answer, sir, now that I have already given a number of disclaimers about my perspective, and I can answer "no" to your question about finding ET unpleasant, for ET can allow musical things to happen which JI cannot allow, and I appreciate that ability.

Sensible answer, thanks!

[AldenG]

Sammy's posts are so much better quoted and embedded than mine that I decided to come back and insert some of the ditties to which I referred earlier.

Lark Rise To Candleford Theme, Julian Nott (I don't recall the episode with the talking frogs, however...) Do you hear anything distinctively British about this? If so, I would never have guessed -- unlike with the Return of the Native theme further below and the rest of the music used in Lark Rise episodes.



Brideshead Revisited Theme, Geoffrey Burgon
(Doesn't the slideshow evoke a couple of British lads moved to Finland together to teach English?)



There's also promise shown in Burgon's title music for Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy
Haven't watched this in a long time. But along with Brideshead and the Raj Quartet (Jewel In The Crown, etc), it is one of the many world's-best that have come out of BBC and Granada Television.



Return of the Native, Carl Davis
Just imagine what Vaughan-Williams would have turned this into.



I see that on a number of Return of the Native youtubes, the copyright owner has pulled the audio. Wouldn't want anyone finding out there was something interesting in there, after all. God, they might get the idea to go watch the whole thing, and THEN what might happen?

I hesitate to post anything from Dances With Wolves because now I don't understand how I could have confused any of this with Howard Hanson. But since they were being used as 15-30 second "buttons" or filler, I suppose it's always possible to grab a bit out of the middle that doesn't immediately shout "Hollywood." And I can't always tell the difference between fake synth strings and brass versus Hollywood strings and brass.

[sammy]

Return of the Native, Carl Davis
Just imagine what Vaughan-Williams would have turned this into.

Gustav Holst did in fact compose something related, Egdon Heath (the fictional scenery for Return of the Native):



The distant rims of the world and of the firmament seemed to be a division in time no less than a division in matter. The face of the heath by its mere complexion added half an hour to evening; it could in like manner retard the dawn, sadden noon, anticipate the frowning of storms scarcely generated, and intensify the opacity of a moonless midnight to a cause of shaking and dread.

Call it the "Wessex Tapiola" if you like - incidentally, the two works seems to have been composed almost at the same time, Egdon Heath appearing right at the heels of (what I think of as) Sibelius' masterpiece.

And Finzi has a collection of songs set to Hardy's poetry. A very good album, that one, btw...

I haven't seen any of the Hardy-based movies, come to think of it. There are many others I believe than just that one you mentioned. Tess of the Baskervilles and what have you

[AldenG]

I haven't seen any of the Hardy-based movies, come to think of it. There are many others I believe than just that one you mentioned. Tess of the Baskervilles and what have you

Tess of the Baskervilles, Far from the Speckled Crowd... All sorts of possibilities. To rent and watch, I mean.

The only modern Hardy filmatization I haven't particularly enjoyed was Roman Polanski's Tess. But I have no recollection of any of the soundtracks other than Return of the Native. I think I have a 3-hour Mayor of Casterbridge yet to be seen, the one with Alan Rickman. The adapation of it titled The Claim was also very enjoyable. That was the first DVD I ever watched. As a bonus, it stars Sarah Polley.

[sammy]

Ah I almost forgot. Modern classical and the movies! This is IMO by far the best example of "classical music" used on the silver screen...


It's kind of funny how many "re-adaptations" of this scene there are on youtube (surprisingly many of which have replaced the Ligeti score with Pink Floyd) but if you ask me it just doesn't work with rock music, however psychedelic. Enter a drumkit into the mix and it's *slam* down to earth really... well, one might argue that parts of "Echoes" might suit this material pretty well, but then again, it's only those parts that were influenced by Ligeti et al anyway...!

(Don't get me wrong anyone, I love "Echoes" - the thing is, much of it is borrowed from earlier sources )

Kubrick also used Bartók and Penderecki in "the Shining" to great effect. The latter composer's music however is practically too cacophonic to be listened on its own, but suits the movie pretty well (in small doses).

These two pieces must ring a bell for all those who knew Jack Torrance

[Saturn]

This most interesting discussion drifted very far from the original subject, but I still decided to inform you that baritone Rauno Keltanen worked as soloist in the National Opera of Finland until 1970's. Since 1979 he was based in Joensuu, a small town in Eastern Finland, where he made a long teaching career in the local Conservatory alongside of his solo performances.

Rauno Keltanen published on his own label called "Vorna LP" a series of five albums of Finnish folk songs in 1985. The publishing of the albums coincided with the fast process of digitalization of music and since he only published the albums as vinyls, they didn't get very wide distribution nor the appreciation they should have had by the quality of his work. Nowadays his albums are true collector items since the the number of copies was quite limited.

"Soi maailma säveleitä", "Sinun silmäs ja minun silmät" and "Mieleni minun tekevi", consists of traditional Carelian folk songs. My personal favorite is the last one "Mieleni minun tekevi" where he is accompanied by the brilliant Finnish zither player Ritva Koistinen. "Anna luoja, suo Jumala" consists of old Finnish hymns, and "Hän suuri on ihmeellinen" consists of spiritual Finnish folk songs.

Soi maailma säveleitä - Rauno Keltanen (voc), Marita Viitasalo-Pohjonen (piano)
Sinun silmäs ja minun silmät - Rauno Keltanen (voc), Ralf Gothóni (piano)
Anna luoja suo jumala - Rauno Keltanen (voc), Erkki Tuppurainen (organ)
Hän suuri on ihmeellinen - Rauno Keltanen (voc), Erkki Tuppurainen (organ)
Mieleni minun tekevi - Rauno Keltanen (voc), Ritva Koistinen (kantele = Finnish zither)

In case you are interested to hear some of Rauno Keltanen's music, there is a music shop in Finland called "Digelius" (that someone referred to on the discussion board earlier) that can easily provide you with his albums. http://www.digelius.com/en_index.html They have all Rauno Keltanen's albums on stock (not expensive, I seem to remember the price per album was something like 10-15 USD). Digelius makes deliveries all the time abroad, so in case you want to hear more of Rauno Keltanen's brilliant singing, you can place your order at their e-mail: info (a) digelius.com