Religion, or lack thereof?

[AldenG]

Well... it might seem like Finland only gives a token nod to religion if you are a religious person.

Or as in my case, if one only happens to live in a much more religious country.

Despite the formal name of the Finnish church, it seems much more institutional and much less evangelical than most American churches. There are frightfully many here in the US who would be delighted to impose a Christian version of Sharia law.

But I certainly agree with sysyphus that Pakistan is even more dominated by religion.

Anti-religiosity can be a constructive step on the road to non-religiosity but is hopefully only a phase of growth.

I'm not saying everyone should be non-religious, only that to be anti-religious is still to have one's life and thinking defined by religion. It is to ask the same questions and come up with opposite or at least different answers. To be free of religion would be to ask different questions in the first place and not to care what the religious say. (Of course you have to care when they're putting it into secular law.)

I'm sympathetic to some forms of religious impulse but not to the authoritarian and manipulative ones.

[tuulen]

Never mind that, but what now comes is your ability to speak Finnish.
You either do that, or your destiny in Finland is nowhere.
Finland is a wonderful place, but the Finnish language is your ticket to entry.

... And you can't experience culture without being able to interact with the people who form that culture!

But that is my point, that without speaking the Finnish language one cannot experience Finnish culture.

Without speaking Finnish, you are wasting your time in Finland.

[interleukin]

Without speaking Finnish, you are wasting your time in Finland.

Speak for yourself. There are eg. a bunch of people who speak Swedish around here. Of course the Finns don't know about that culture and keep getting surprised when they encounter it, but I assure you, it does exist. Yes, knowing Finnish is a very good way to experience Finland, but you're being a bit overly dramatic in your statements.

[sysyphus]

There is a Scottish sociologist here in Lahore who's currently conducting an ethnographic study on life in the red light district of the city. I haven't seen him wearing a kilt in public.

Maybe he doesn't want to bring unfair competition

LOL! How considerate of him =P
But I think he's actually putting himself out of contention, as far as the women in the rural areas here are concerned. We have a local version of the kilt, it's called 'dhoti'. Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoti

[sysyphus]

Well... it might seem like Finland only gives a token nod to religion if you are a religious person.

Or as in my case, if one only happens to live in a much more religious country.

Despite the formal name of the Finnish church, it seems much more institutional and much less evangelical than most American churches. There are frightfully many here in the US who would be delighted to impose a Christian version of Sharia law.

But I certainly agree with sysyphus that Pakistan is even more dominated by religion.

Anti-religiosity can be a constructive step on the road to non-religiosity but is hopefully only a phase of growth.

I'm not saying everyone should be non-religious, only that to be anti-religious is still to have one's life and thinking defined by religion. It is to ask the same questions and come up with opposite or at least different answers. To be free of religion would be to ask different questions in the first place and not to care what the religious say. (Of course you have to care when they're putting it into secular law.)

I'm sympathetic to some forms of religious impulse but not to the authoritarian and manipulative ones.

As a secular humanist, I believe in one's right to living the way they want to, as long as others have the same freedom. But that's hardly ever the case. Every religion in the world got it's hands dirty at one point in time or the other. From the inquisitions to the Salem witch hunts to Muhammed's (The guy BTW married a SIX year old girl when he was 54!) and slaughtering of Jews and pagans on his way to becoming the supreme politician in Arabia - it's all mired in blood.
Abrahamic religions have the biggest culprits, and continue to have the biggest subscriptions of followers. It probably is a reflection of mankind's thirst for blood.
My country is on the fast-track to becoming a theocracy. The bastards persecute other religious minorities (many hindus have recently fled to safety across the border) and don't just stop there. They are even more venomous when it comes to minority sects within Islam (and there are atleast 22 of them in Pakistan alone). I am not saying everyone should be non-religious; I am just saying religion should a personal affair. Every society should be secular.

[sysyphus]

Never mind that, but what now comes is your ability to speak Finnish.
You either do that, or your destiny in Finland is nowhere.
Finland is a wonderful place, but the Finnish language is your ticket to entry.

... And you can't experience culture without being able to interact with the people who form that culture!

But that is my point, that without speaking the Finnish language one cannot experience Finnish culture.

Without speaking Finnish, you are wasting your time in Finland.

Tuulen, I am aware that I could never achieve complete assimilation with the Finnish society without speaking one of the two official languages, but at least for the first six months I should be able to get by. I mean isn't that the reason why education is being provided in English and the number of such programmes continue to increase with every passing year. If it weren't so, if the government wasn't in support of this, Finland wouldn't offer education in English, to foreigners, no?

[sysyphus]

Without speaking Finnish, you are wasting your time in Finland.

Speak for yourself. There are eg. a bunch of people who speak Swedish around here. Of course the Finns don't know about that culture and keep getting surprised when they encounter it, but I assure you, it does exist. Yes, knowing Finnish is a very good way to experience Finland, but you're being a bit overly dramatic in your statements.

Interleukin, this forum needs a 'LIKE' button or a heart shaped emoticon =D

[sysyphus]

I'm sympathetic to some forms of religious impulse but not to the authoritarian and manipulative ones.

Please don't be under the impression that I am against the total annihilation of the religious institutions. Admittedly, my views are more radical since most of the woes in my life are the direct result of not conforming to the 6th century edicts of a barbaric, paedophile that was Muhammed. Religion has many positive aspects, which are just overshadowed by the atrocities committed in the name of God. For instance, religion leads to social solidarity and helps people deal with grief in times of distress. Major life events like birth and death bring people together through rituals like the funeral, baptisms and the bar mitzvah. It has undoubted unification benefits to the society as a whole.
But through the eyes of a skeptic, this would be turned on its head and argued that these exact same features tend to be a divisive force. It pitches Muslisms against Hindus, Jews against Christians and so on =)

[interleukin]

Sorry, it was a bit off-topic to discuss the language thing, it's just that black & white statements tend to annoy me. "Knowing Finnish will make your life fuller and easier in Finland" or something like that would have been fine and a completely true statement.

[sysyphus]

Sorry, it was a bit off-topic to discuss the language thing, it's just that black & white statements tend to annoy me. "Knowing Finnish will make your life fuller and easier in Finland" or something like that would have been fine and a completely true statement.

It wasn't off-topic, I raised the question myself a few posts ago. In a way I can empathise with Tuulen. The Finns have been an extremely homogeneous society for all of their 95 years as a nation and skepticism of foregners is only natural. But Tuulen's hardline views and your objective moderate ones are proof of diverisity of opinion.
Tuulen just makes me al the more determined to prove him wrong and sing Finnish folk songs fluently within a year

[interleukin]

skepticism of foregners is only natural.

The Swedish speakers are not foreigners, they have always been there. Wikipedia is your friend.

[sysyphus]

skepticism of foregners is only natural.

The Swedish speakers are not foreigners, they have always been there. Wikipedia is your friend.

I am not a Swede, was referring to myself
The Swedes form a 6% minority and I didnt get that from wikipedia. No one should get information from wikipedia. The articles there are not reliable because the sources quoted are never validated and the authors have no academic credibility. Even a drug crazed hermit can jump on the laptop and edit an entry

[interleukin]

Ok, sorry, misunderstood you.

[sysyphus]

Ok, sorry, misunderstood you.

No problem! I have often been accused of writing in a cryptic manner. People say its as if I am talking to myself. Whatever comes into my mind gets transferred to others without proofreading

[AldenG]

Do you drink strong coffee?