Divorce and Losing my Visa

[BillyBob]

I'm from North America and married a Finn 4 years ago (3 years in NA). Moving to Finland I was given the one year permit A Visa and am attending university starting this fall. Would I lose my A visa and have to get a B status visa if I get a divorce during any time of my studies? I have moved everything I have here for her before I knew about school, taken up roots and sat them down here. I can not afford to go home and give up a university spot on top of that. I can not afford university without the help of KELA. At the same time, its not fair for my wife and I to be unhappy. I have been contributing to the government and have made strong ties here. I would like to stay after school and continue to work here for a few more years. Would all that be taken away?

[AldenG]

Have you tried counseling? Many (maybe most) couples, when they try a do-it-yourself approach to solving problems, especially culture-of-origin problems, actually end up reinforcing the habits, attitudes, and conflicts that cause the problems in the first place. They need an experienced outside perspective to understand what is really going on behind the problems and how to solve them.

If you cared enough about each other to get married in the first place, more often or not the relationship can be saved. Not in every single case, but more often than not. I don't know the quality of relationship counseling available in Finland, but I know that the good therapists in the U.S. are very successful at rescuing relationships in trouble. Of course there are also the therapists who aren't so good at it, and it's hard to know what you're getting into. And there are occasionally relationships that can't or shouldn't be saved. But considering the emotional and financial costs of divorce, I think it's crazy to go there without first seeing whether a professional can help you better than you can help yourselves. You don't assume you can diagnose and treat, say, fatigue and physical weakness better than a medical professional. Why would you assume you can handle your relationship problems better than a relationship professional?

[rinso]

If the reason for your RP changes, you need a new RP.
(I understand you are only here for 1 year)
But check with migri to make sure what happens in your situation.
(don't count on "they might overlook me if I keep quiet", they don't)
And that you burned all your bridges is no reason for a new RP.

[Rip]

From a government publication (from 2002, I think)
http://www.mol.fi/mol/fi/99_pdf/fi/04_m ... rv_eng.pdf

The effect of divorce on residence permit
When a divorce is granted, the continuing or revoking of a residence permit is always
considered case by case. The termination of marriage or common-law marriage may affect the
continuation of a residence permit only if the immigrant has a temporary residence permit
granted on the basis of family ties. Divorce has no effect on a permanent residence permit. If
the permanent permit is based on false information given about the marriage or common-law
marriage, this may have an impact on the residence permit.
Residence permits are always granted on the basis of consideration. The authorities take into
account all the details affecting the matter when making a decision. Whether the applicant’s
family ties are stronger in his or her previous home country than in Finland also affects the
decision. A Finnish ex-spouse cannot require that a residence permit should be revoked.
If a divorcee has a temporary residence permit, usually a residence period of at least two years
in Finland is required for the continuance of the permit. If the immigrant is pregnant or if she
has a child, a job or studies in Finland, the continuation of a residence permit may be
considered even if she has lived in Finland for less than two years.
Two years’ residence may not necessarily be required in a situation where the marriage has
ended due to the violent behaviour of the other spouse. However, sufficient evidence of the
violence of the spouse must be presented to the authorities responsible for the residence
permit. Evidence may consist of a medical certificate of the signs of physical violence or a
statement given by a family clinic. You are also advised to attach your own description of
your situation in the residence permit application.

I don't think they will revoke existing permits (although legally they might), but you'd likely have a hard time of getting a non-student permit if you had lived less than two years in Finland before you need to apply for a new permit.
(By the way, it is a residence permit, not a visa)

Edit: Have you already applied for your first extension for your residence permit?

[BillyBob]

Thank you for the info! Every info and help is like fresh air. I should go and talk to the police and see what they say.

I read the pdf section and that is core info that I couldn't find on myself so I am in great debt, thank you!!!!!!!

There is a counselor here that we have seen. We listen to music and draw pictures, I could see that would help some people. But before we hate each other and deliberately do things to hurt each other I think its time to say goodbye. I stay and study here, she does her thing and no bridges are burned.

I would have to extend my permit residence from 1 year initial permit to the 3 year permit during the "regret time". So I think its best I go and talk with the police and get their input.

If anyone else has info or first hand experience I would love to hear it, out dated or not, its nice to see I'm not the only goofball that has came here for love

[AldenG]

There is a counselor here that we have seen. We listen to music and draw pictures, I could see that would help some people.

Wow.

That's certainly, uh . . . let's say, "not mainstream."

Mainstream marital therapy is far more direct than that. You should usually expect to start seeing some degree of change within 3 or 4 sessions. Not always improvement that early, but breaking of logjams.

Are there accreditation and monitoring agencies for marriage counseling in Finland? Do you happen to know what your counselor's education or background is?

The approach you describe would be used in the U.S. mostly for psychotherapy for children or for people with problems so severe it would not be safe or productive to address them more directly at first. It feels like a time warp back to the sixties or something to hear this is being used for garden-variety marriage counseling.

[Rip]

I would have to extend my permit residence from 1 year initial permit to the 3 year permit during the "regret time".

In case you live in Helsinki: The processing times for the extension applications are quite long. Submitting the new application 6 months before the the first permit expires would not be too early.

[sandundasa]

I would have to extend my permit residence from 1 year initial permit to the 3 year permit during the "regret time".

In case you live in Helsinki: The processing times for the extension applications are quite long. Submitting the new application 6 months before the the first permit expires would not be too early.

I think you can't submit 6months before, can you ? as far as I know the earliest is 3 months before the current permit expires.

[Rip]

I think you can't submit 6months before, can you ? as far as I know the earliest is 3 months before the current permit expires.

I guess the policy may vary depending on location. As it happens, we'll be abroad for an extended time starting from about one month before the expiry date of my wife's first permit, and when I asked instructions from the police, they recommended bringing the application about five months in advance. In the end we did it 5.5 months early and we may still end up taking there also a letter from my employer to ask them to speed things up, so we we'd get the decision in time.

This in Helsinki - probably waiting times are shorter everywhere else.

[BillyBob]

I'm not if it is too main stream. But there are no English speaking typical direct counselors in the area. It isn't bad counseling, not at all, in fact it has shed even more light on why separating would be better for both of us. Not sure if that's how it was suppose to go, but that's life.

Thank you everyone for your advice and words here! I appreciate it!

You said there would be someone at my university to go and talk about this to who would know the system and laws, but I am starting school in the fall. Is there a government agent or city official in every town that one could go talk to?

Thank you!

[CatNip]

Here are couple of links I found:

http://www.vaestoliitto.fi/in_english/c ... /services/
http://katajary.fi/en

Espoo:
http://www.golosthera.fi/couples.html

Helsinki:
Heikki Seppälä, Psykoterapeutti
(044) 317 1961
Yksilöterapia
Pari- ja perheterapia
yksilö- ja ryhmätyönohjaus
e-mail: [email protected]
Also In English
Mahdollisuus ottaa uusia asiakkaita: Kyllä

Helsinki: http://www.suomenhahmoterapia.fi/terapeutit.htm
Helsinki:http://katajary.fi/en/pariskunnille/ter ... lventoinen


I belive you can find help in English, just don't give up.

[Oombongo]

I am also going through seperation but I am a permenant resident so no problemo.

What I may say is: contact to your local police station as soon as possible. They may tell you better what to do in this situation. I went to the local police station and talked about it. They asked for a paper duly signed by my employer and thus I was able to keep my permenant permit.

[BillyBob]

Thank you CatNip for the links!!!

[AldenG]

Personally, I wouldn't go asking advice from the same agencies that would decide whether to give me a permanent permit.

For the moment, you're married. Lots of couples have periods of struggle. In fact, lots of people stay unhappily married. I say that NOT to encourage you to stay married unhappily, but to make the point that whether or not a marriage is happy is none of the government's business. The question they're entitled to ask is whether a marriage is real -- whether the couple is trying to make it work or whether it took place only for the purpose of residency. Just because you have considered or talked about divorce, or even made a preliminary filing and later changed your mind, doesn't make the marriage non-real or not a basis for applying on the basis of it.

With cross-cultural couples, it's common to have some degree of turmoil for a year or two after you "swap countries." The balances of power and dependency invert, plus each partner has many expectations (not all of them recognized) for what the move will bring. Then there is the stress of change, which is more dramatic for the foreign-born partner but also occurs in the one moving "home." Either partner may expect the move to fix something (or several things) that are left sort of pending until then. If they don't change that much, that can be a major disappointment.

I know it's stressful to hope again once you start resigning yourself to divorce, but for something so life-changing, a second opinion is a good idea. You probably wouldn't get surgery on your back or knee or hand without more than one surgeon's opinion. A divorce is at least as big an operation. So even if you discussed the role of these factors and others, a second try is not unreasonable. There are big differences between relationship counselors and the outcomes they get. There are indeed couples who ought to break up, and a good counselor will help you recognize that. The problem comes in when counselors use that to cover up and dignify their own inability to help a couple make progress.

If I sound kind of invested in this, it's because that's what my wife does for a living. And she gets a lot of second-try couples who end up staying happily together with her help. Cross-cultural couples are a fairly large part of her practice. Of course she also gets some who end up separating. In fact, some of her work is helping people divorce amicably. We're not living in Finland right now, though, so she's not an option and I'm not pushing her services.

[Oombongo]

I never even thought about going to the authorities to ask for permission to keep my permanent residence permit after divorce because I just assumed that I was a permanent resident. Employed and single for 2 years before remarrying and never got called in on the fact that I was a divorced immigrant here.

I simply didn't want to take any chances! They have power, vest and guns!