Childless foreigners in Finland, what about the babies??

[Phil]

Hey all you childless foreigners in Finland, ever thought about what you'd do if you and your significant other had a child here in Finland? Then, you might decide you'd like to head back to your home country - but your child is here with his/her Finnish parent. That Finnish parent may not want to leave Finland. So you either...

1. Leave Finland, leave the kid here. Then you're officially known as "the bastard deadbeat father/mother who abandoned their child and fled the country."

OR

2. Stay miserable in Finland only because your kid is stuck here, have trouble finding jobs etc...

OR

3. "Abduct" the kid, bring him/her back to your own country, let the courts battle it out.

This recent H.S. article has made me think about that. And no, Anja and I are not planning on having kids anytime soon!!

[alloydog]

Interesting point. I met someone a while back, who was seperated from his other half, but I gathered he was only rstaying in Finland because of his daughter.

[Phil]

When a divorce happens in Finland, is it the mother who usually gets the kids (assuming both parents are "normal")? What about cases when the couple is not married, does that make any difference?

[strawberry]

Well, for a start, if you have a baby whilst unmarried, the father has to proclaim paternity - not such a nice process as questions are asked in the tone that was used in the 19th century... A formality which even "officially cohabiting" couples have to follow through. When a child is born out of wedlock, the Mum is automatically a single mother... So, you need to follow some procedure to become joint custodians. After all that has been done and providing the relationship with the child is "normal", as you put it, the marriage thing is irrelevant. However, in this country as in many other western countries, the norm I believe is that Mum gets to "keep" the kids. But, JOINT custody is very much favoured by the courts - in the interest of the kids, I suppose (in theory). In a case of a dispute, things get nasty, but often if a split is more or less amicable, the parents have that joint custody. However, as Trish pointed out in another thread, the papers ALWAYS state which parent the kids live with - visitation etc. is a separate issue.

[odon]

hei...hei.....


That is why i did not get married to a finn and me neither is a finn! so we are both foreigners from different countries in a neutral country....so no trouble....no rights....!! ha....ha....i hope those stupid finnish laws do not apply to my kids....i want them to grow normal that is when i get down to making kids!! hei...hee......

[Cory]

Hey all you childless foreigners in Finland, ever thought about what you'd do if you and your significant other had a child here in Finland? -

Was this intentionally intended to "keep out" the opinions of those of us *with* children? Are we allowed to post, too?

Cory

[Phil]

Hey all you childless foreigners in Finland, ever thought about what you'd do if you and your significant other had a child here in Finland? -

Was this intentionally intended to "keep out" the opinions of those of us *with* children? Are we allowed to post, too?

Cory

Of course you're allowed to post, just a bad choice of words on my part.

[Cory]

Hey all you childless foreigners in Finland, ever thought about what you'd do if you and your significant other had a child here in Finland?

Wanted to make certain there wasn't a reason that you chose only childless couples.

My husband and I have a good marriage---10 years coming up in February. So... I've never had to contemplate this.

I can say, though, as a Family therapist, it *is* a good thread to start for the sake of those members who are still childless (might make some people think twice). Many multi-national relationships end in divorce (although not any higher than the 50% average in westernized states) and the families are then thrown into this quagmire of "what to do with the children". Unfortunately, the ones who end up being ripped off, in terms of being able to continue relationships with both parents, are the children.

In my opinion (and as you see, not such a humble one, either)...if a couple make a decision to have children together, they make a committment to always act in the best interests of their young children. Being a parent means sacrifice...an endless amount..that's part of the job.

A ton of research has been done about single parents and the overall health (mental and physical) of the children. The truth will always remain.. a child is happiest and healthiest when they are able to see both parents on a regular basis. Perhaps not living in the same house but somewhere nearby.

So..I guess to answer your question... *If* (and it's a big *IF*), my dh and I were to divorce while our kids were still young, my dh and I would have to find a way to stay in the same vicinity (probably a big sacrifice on my part if we weren't living in Canada at the time) until our kids were at at least teens and better able to understand the mechanics of human relationships.

Cory

[simon]

totally agree with Cory

I have 2 boys and at the end of the day children are for life and when you have your children it is a major change in lifestyles. They are the most precious things in your life and how any parent can harm, mentally or physically is beyond my understanding.

IF for instance and its a big IF we were to get divorced I dont think I could imagine moving away from my boys as they are everything to me. This is part of the deal with a relationship from different countries for me at least.

It is they that make me happy and of course my wife but we are a family and my boys are my boys and thats the way it will be. I want to see them grow up , support them in all ways that I can.


Well thats me and my opinion.

[Phil]

Did you guys think about this before you had kids? Back when you were childless and living in Finland, you could have easily moved back to your home country if you wanted too. But after having kids, that made things much more difficult and now your Finnish partner was in more control of where you lived. Having kids in Finland automatically places that "I'm Stuck Here" stamp on your forehead me thinks.

[Cory]

Did you guys think about this before you had kids? Back when you were childless and living in Finland, you could have easily moved back to your home country if you wanted too. But after having kids, that made things much more difficult and now your Finnish partner was in more control of where you lived. Having kids in Finland automatically places that "I'm Stuck Here" stamp on your forehead me thinks.

Yes, we did discuss the issue of children before we got married. We started as a long-distance relationship (dh living in Japan and I in Canada) before moving together to Japan and on to Sweden before settling in Finland and having having our babies.

Even the committment to get married was just that. A committment. Any relationship in your life *will* have it's ups and downs. It's easy to just say, "OK..this sucks now..I'm gone". The hard part (and the most rewarding in the end, truly) is total committment...understanding, forgiveness, respect and unconditional love...and to ride out the rough spots.

Of course, it goes without saying that I'm not condoning staying in a relationship if there is mental or physical abuse and/or violence.

You say "and now your Finnish partner is in more control". If control matters to you, then you need to look at yourself. 9 times out of 10, control issues are in the eye of the beholder (excuse the cliche).

If you think "having kids automatically puts a ""I'm stuck here"" stamp on your head", don't have children. I commend you being mature enough to think about this before you actually do have children. You love your kids enough for that. If you're not completely committed to the person with whom who are considering having children with, you *know* you're not going to be happy living in an environment where you feel you can't be in the control that you, yourself, require, *and* you **know** that you're not going to be able to remain in the environment *if* the relationship ends, don't have children. Wait a while.

Cory

[Rosamunda]

Phil wrote:
Did you guys think about this before you had kids? Back when you were childless and living in Finland, you could have easily moved back to your home country if you wanted too. But after having kids, that made things much more difficult and now your Finnish partner was in more control of where you lived. Having kids in Finland automatically places that "I'm Stuck Here" stamp on your forehead me thinks.

Yes but when you have kids your priorities change : i.e. you no longer think purely in terms of "me" and "what I want" all the time. I guess living here is not my number one choice but I think it is a good place for my kids to go through school and they are certainly happy here. We were all getting stressed out at moving around so much and losing friends as soon as we had made them, so stability was high on the agenda. Finland, why not?! I am more than happy to compromise on my own preferences while my kids are growing up. When we had our boys we were living in a neutral country (ie: not my home country and not dh's either) - I don't remember specifically having a conversation along the lines of "what if.... we move to Finland one day and what if... I don't like it and what if... we get divorced.... oh well, maybe we shouldn't have kids then...."

Maybe I do have the "I'm stuck here" sticker on my forehead (and the T shirt) but I don't have a problem with it, it doesn't bother me excessively (not every day anyway)... and when it does I just sit in front of the Bright Light for 20 mins or so and then go out for a Latte and a chat somewhere.

But, Cory is right. It is a real issue and I know several split up families in Finland where the mum or dad is not Finnish and has had to cope with a divorce here. In most of the cases I know of personally the "foreign" parent has chosen to stay in Finland close to the kids but not always. Every family is in a unique situation and it is not possible to make rash generalisations about what is "best for the kids" without looking at specifics and without (IMO) listening to the children too.

[simon]

Yes but when you have kids your priorities change : i.e. you no longer think purely in terms of "me" and "what I want" all the time.

Yes I agree with that too.

We had our first child in the UK and the second here. When we decided to move to Finland the major issue was that we both thought that Finland was the better place to raise the children and thats why we moved here. But also and maybe Im looking through rose tinted glasses here but, it never even crossed our minds to think what if we divorce what will happen next with regards to staying in Finland for the childrens sake, maybe thats us being romatic.

In regards to the
"I'm Stuck Here" stamp on your forehead me thinks. Well in a sense yes but on the bright side employers like to see that you have that stamp meaning that you are not going to go back to your own country, thats what I was asked in my second interview anyways

"How long you planning to stay in Finland?"...

Me: 4ever I have to think about my children.

But thats besides the point I suppose [/i]

[Cory]

Penelope, you wrote...."Yes but when you have kids your priorities change : i.e. you no longer think purely in terms of "me" and "what I want" all the time. "

Good point. Absolutely our priorities change. As parents we can most definately pick out the "what I wouldn't be doing" or the "where I would be living" if I didn't have children. I believe, though, that there is no way to know how one's priorities are going to change.

It's also important to recognize that the priorities of the couple, itself, changes. For instance, the wife needs more alone time but the man needs more time together as a family. Before kids, they both needed together alone time. Or before kids, both worked so they could afford lots of frills but after kids, one chose to stay home until the kids were in school therefore cutting out all the excurricular activities and "toys". One partner may resent the fact that the other needs to spend all their time with the children.

These sorts of issues one can never really totally prepare ahead for but talking about them certainly can give you an idea of what to expect.

Cory

[strawberry]

Yes, I too agree with all the replies - very sensible words all round.

However, I wish to point out the obvious fact that no-one, but no-one, gets involved in a relationship, gets married, has children etc.etc. actually being able to imagine for real "what if"... People may be mature and sensible (and naturally all the points for at least trying!) and they may discuss all those things but when it comes to the crunch... All's thrown out of the window. Sometimes life indeed is b**ch and then you die... Meaning that however much you try to accommodate and not think about yourself etc.etc. there comes a limit when, for example, the other half all of a sudden starts seeing things differently. And you have no control over that. Depending on the person, of course!

All I'm saying is that things certainly are NEVER black-and-white... Especially if you look at someone else's situation: you never, ever know the actual details if you are not a member of that particular family and have not lived in their shoes... Reason why I find it pretty upsetting when there is an uproar in cases like the most recent international custody battle... I really, sincerely wish it will all turn out for the children's best.

Unfortunately, the ones who end up being ripped off, in terms of being able to continue relationships with both parents, are the children.

That is ALWAYS the case.

Phil, you are still very young but I commend you for at least thinking about all this. It is a very serious issue.