Kela Money?

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dusty_bin
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Post by dusty_bin » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:22 pm

Peter, this gives the impression, not of mobility of labour, but just the opposite! The reality is that we are responsible to and for ourselves first.
If he was unemployable in Ireland let me just imagine how that improves by moving to Finland, a country with a higher unemployment rate, prejudices against foreigners (common in all countries), a different language that he can't speak and I would mention work culture, but that probably does not apply!

He should have encouraged his GF to live with him in Ireland, at least she can speak English and was probably educated. There are jobs aplenty in Ireland for bilingual girls in call centres and the like. Much less for monolingual guys in Finland...

I am sure that Dermot is a nice guy, but if his girlfriend wants him here, then she should be paying for him, not the rest of us. (Us in the broadest sense, since I don't pay tax here yet!)

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fionna
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Post by fionna » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:24 pm

dusty_bin wrote:IMHO when we move country, or even city, it is our own responsibility to ensure that we can support ourselves. Not anyone else's. If we have made no contribution to any form of social fund we have no right to expect others to support us.

Sounds to me like we would end up with pockets of permanently depressed areas with high unemployment, if you can't leave where you are to seek work elsewhere.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:33 pm

Finland is a permanently depressed area.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


dusty_bin
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Post by dusty_bin » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:34 pm

Fionna, you are of course correct. BUT... and BUT...

In this case we see little evidence of work seeking, rather the opposite. Secondly, Ireland is not exactly the unemployment capital of Europe! Finns should be migrating there.

I would never argue that we are not free to move, however, Dermot himself told us that the reason he is here is at the behest of his girlfriend. I don't think that Norman had this in mind when he made his famous speech in the early 1980's! The government gives us a safety net to enable us to seek work, it even applies to a limited extent to cross border job seeking. It does not apply to supporting students, nor to those who are not seeking any work.

If the guy was serious about finding work, he would not be here... From an economic perspective, probably the only place where he might find work would be Ireland, or Britain. A rational actor would not be traipsing off across Europe in pursuit of his flaxen haired lovely, hoping that Mummy and Daddy State would provide on his arrival. A rational slacker might even have checked the benefit situation prior to rolling up his bedroll and packing his guitar!

Olly-No need to have removed the Tebbit thought...
If I remember correctly, was it not you who spent a long time digging graves through the dead of winter a year or so ago. Could Dermot do that work? Where might he apply? It is bloody cold though right and we are coming up to winter... Better than being on the dole, for one's self respect though, I reckon!


dusty_bin
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Post by dusty_bin » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:35 pm

Hank-It's not a permanently depressed area, just permanently depressed people! :)


Ace

Post by Ace » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:38 pm

dusty_bin wrote:Olly-No need to have removed the Tebbit thought...
If I remember correctly, was it not you who spent a long time digging graves through the dead of winter a year or so ago. Could Dermot do that work? Where might he apply? It is bloody cold though right and we are coming up to winter... Better than being on the dole, for one's self respect though, I reckon!


No that wasn't me. I remember that guy from the smartgroup days but can't remember his name? Quite a philosophical character if I remember correctly (well you would be in that line of work :wink: )


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:38 pm

dusty_bin wrote:Hank-It's not a permanently depressed area, just permanently depressed people! :)


Nitpicker :mrgreen:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Dermot
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Post by Dermot » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:28 pm

Dusty Bin,

Things are not always as they seem.

My girlfriend, Jenni, and I were both tired of Ireland and Irish life. We chose to move here. Before moving, i was attending University, where, if i had stayed, i would have chosen to major in English and Philosophy.
As i was not able to find work in Ireland, i entered University.
At no point was I or Jenni sitting on our asses in Ireland, claiming dole there and doing nothing else.

Jenni did move to Ireland, and did indeed work in a call centre for over a year. She also continued her studies in art.

I was consistent in my search for work before i entered University and consistent in my search for musicians and my work in the musical field all the time. Before i came to Finland i completed work on an e.p. of my music, and whilst in Finland the artwork for that e.p. was done.

We are both highly ambitious artistic people. We both want to succeed in the areas of life which we deem most valuable and are passionate towards. That, for me, is music. And for Jenni it is fine art.
Of course i have thought about all that you have mentioned. I am a man of intelligence, after all, that is why i am with a Finnish woman.

We assessed the opportunities and options for our respective arts in Ireland, and after years of persistence with our preferred careers in that country meeting constant dead-ends, we chose to move to Finland, where we both feel that, on balance, it will work out better for us, and our arts will be better appreciated by the Finnish people, who know a good thing when they see, or indeed, hear it.
Also, from a health perspective, it is better for us, especially Jenni, to be in Finland away from the extreme dampness and bad housing of Ireland.

My plan is not to 'sponge' on the dole here for the next 5 years. The day after i got to Finland, and ever since, i have been sending my CVs to all kinds of companies, including telesales positions. I have proposed teaching courses with various principals. I have met with principals of music schools. I have met with various esteemed musicians. I have put out ads for other musicians. I do not intend to sit at home on my ass for the next 5 years and live off the paltry money and unacceptable existance that any Kela money could grant me. I came to Finland with my girlfriend to achieve a great many things. Of course i knew it would be hard. I am assessing my options right now, and forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but isn't this a forum where people come to ask other people for information and help, in other words, to get on to where they are going? I am not hurting anyone - financially or physically.
Last edited by Dermot on Fri Oct 03, 2003 9:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:55 pm

Dermot wrote:. I am a man of intelligence, after all, that is why i am with a Finnish woman.


Well... :mrgreen:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


dusty_bin
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Post by dusty_bin » Fri Oct 03, 2003 10:04 pm

Dermot wrote:Dusty Bin,

Things are not always as they seem.



And then sometimes they are...

Consider what you told us:
1) You started university, but chose to leave and claim the dole.
2) Your girlfriend left a paying job, whilst a different topic, I assume she is now studying once more, or has a job?
3) You have completed the artwork for an ep without commercial distribution... (assumed, because if you had distribution, you would probably not be here, in the world music capital ;))
4) You went to university because you could not find the job you wanted, but left without finishing.
5) So after mature consideration of the relative benefits of your career in Finland and Ireland/Britain, you came to Finland where almost nobody makes a career in music and those who do move away because the opportunities are so small...hmmm...
6) Have you heard Finish indiginous music? There is a reason why Finland was the first country in Eurovision to get 'nul points'! I think even Hank might question the Finnish appreciation of good things in this respect!
7) I don't know about your bit of Ireland, but the life span in the UK is longer than Finland, so I am not sure about the long term health benefits of Finland. OTOH homesickness can make a girl powerful persuasive!
8) Without the education that you have not completed, you will find it hard to find a job, but if you are serious, then you will be able to find jobs with the kind of firms that foreign student friends of mine who have to support themselves work for. All the ferry firms hire non Finnish labour to clean the boats. There are some bars that hire personable folk to work the bar and do washing up. Generally when you have gotten a couple of years education under your belt then there are better jobs available for students from overseas.
9) Teaching for you is pretty much a 'no no'. As a rule of thumb, if you are a native English speaker then you can teach students up to your level of education, so when you have a Bachelors degree then you will be able to teach kids up to Bachelors, generally in a Polytechnic. Universities wil insist upon a Masters or more. As you have no tertiary education completed, you are pretty much stuck, unless you have a clear English acccent, in which case there are English teaching gigs available.

I guess my point is that you have obviously REALLY thought about this about as much as I have thought about what I will have for breakfast tomorrow and I don't eat breakfast.
If you had thought this through you would know the stuff I have written above, you would also know the benefit system, you would know the relationship requirements for financial assistance, you would have applied to a polytechnic or university course a long time ago and if sensible have applied for an exchange programme to Finland that would have allowed you to obtain grants from Europe and Ireland/Britain to allow you to live quite comfortably in Finland for your first year. ( I spent hardly any of my own money in my first year in Finland and I live pretty well!)

Now, what happens when an admissions officer asks about your education history, what degree of committment do you display when they learn that you ducked out of university back home in favour of the dole? Places here are gained competitively against those with committment!

Now the good part:
Free knowledge!
1) Unless you are a refugee you will have to wait for two years with status other than a student, before you can claim educational benefits.
2) For unemployment benefits, you will have to have completed the 'employment condition' basically you have to have worked here for a certain amount of time. You will have to check the limits yourself. Your home country rules may alter this slightly.
3) I trust that you registered yourself with the 'local employment authorities' within seven days of your arrival, otherwise it looks like your goose is cooked. You see, your benefits continue as per your Irish benefits. under the same terms, even though paid by Finland. I guess that if you did not register, then you would be regarded has having ceased your claim in your home country and therefore will have to claim as per Finland with the employment requirement.
4) You can find the details in the document available at: http://tinyurl.com/pmjy

I have a funny feeling that your lack of thought and planning is about to cost you dear. I was not kidding when I said that it is our responsibility to make our own arrangements. It is true not just because we should not be sponging off others who owe us nothing, but because if we do not take responsibility, we lose out by not having the right knowledge.

Go get a job cleaning a boat! The job and money are much more important than Finland supporting you until the world recognises your worth!


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distantspaces
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Post by distantspaces » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:26 pm

Go get a job cleaning a boat! The job and money are much more important than Finland supporting you until the world recognises your worth!


I agree with Dusty bin. Get yourself a cleaning job. Don't you feel you would have more selfworth cleaning toilets in a ship than by sitting on dole?

You have no formal qualifications. I had a bachelor's degree already when I moved to Finland. Even then nobody was willing to employ me. I was cleaning ships for 4 months before the company lost the cleaning contract and fired everyone. I was left unemployed and managed to survive (earning less than 400e a month is not exactly enough to manage a life here) some more months by doing small graphic-design jobs. I was finally rescued after my CV clicked in one place, and I got a real job.

I am a non-EU citizen without a Finnish spouse and officially on student status: KELA cares about this category even less than refugees. I am not even included in the Social security system, considering the fact that I shell out a significant chunk of my salary to support KELA. I don't find that exactly "social", but anyway, I knew about this before I came to Finland - so can't complain there.

It takes time Dermot. Consider yourself lucky that atleast you are eligible for dole. But I really hope you would try to make a living without support from KELA. Get yourself some formal qualifications, and get started with ANY job you can find.

Don't give up and best of luck!


brumlee
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Post by brumlee » Sat Oct 04, 2003 4:46 pm

When i first arrived in Finland a few years ago and went to get my kela card they said because i had been working for over 2 years in other eu countries i was entitled to dole money here.luckily though i found work a couple of days later.spent enough time on the dole back in England to even think about doing it here.[/b][/i]


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Post by Guest » Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:52 pm

Peter Floyd wrote:The language is not a problem if he gets a job chopping down trees...


You think? Even when you are required to be fluent in Finnish as a paperboy?

I agree (to a certain extend) with Dusty. I have been working a very well paid job in Holland, I came here and I have to be with 15% of what I had there, I have the Kela card and the past 4 months I've been living on appr. 200 euros (NOT per month, but in the 4 months) and yet I haven't taken any Kela money.

Why not? Beats me... Maybe I'm too proud... If I don't absolutely need it, I won't take it. I just don't think it's an excuse if you've had a good job in another EU country, to just hop on to social security in another EU country just because you haven't found a job straight away.


dusty_bin
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Post by dusty_bin » Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:00 pm

The Finnish required thing is getting a bit silly at the moment. Even cleaning jobs are now starting to require FInnish on the basis that supervisors may not speak English. This may be true as they may speak Somali, Turkish, Cameroonian etc...

On the boats it still seems ok though, although if you live in the 'regions' outside Ring 3 I guess this is of little consolation!


Alicia
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Students and Kela

Post by Alicia » Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:10 am

Students don't get Kela unless they have been in Finland for two years-but not as a student or on a student visa.

So if you are a student, on a B-class visa you won't be getting Kela money for a while yet. Join the party!


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