Immigration lawyer

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vp
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Immigration lawyer

Post by vp » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:05 pm

Hello,

could anybody advice about a lawyer, who has some experience of working with immigrants from non-EU? I mean some practical issues with permits etc.

Thanks!!!



Immigration lawyer

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PeterF
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Post by PeterF » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:33 am

I dont think such a lawyer exists in Finland...
How would they make/collect their money?
You are trying to come here and until you succeeed they have no guarantee of payment and even then you are a big credit risk.
Also, what can they do for you? Imigration regulations and officials are not open to legal arguements.
Turning up with a lawyer in tow :roll:
You fill in the forms satisfy their requirements... Yes or No...If yes..you eventualy may or may not get let in with a temp residents permit
We can copy paste the links to the pages with the needs/requirements and regulations but....
Now lets start with basics why do you want to come to Finland?


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:49 am

http://www.kuusivaara.com/index2.html

Theres a "briefly in English" section.

As Peter said, there is very little arguing with officials. The going rates for solicitors are so much money its cheaper to buy an investor visa to the USA with that money.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:15 am

Peter Floyd wrote:
Turning up with a lawyer in tow


OK, this means a cultural thing as well:

Peter: "Hank, can you recommend a lawyer."
Hank: "No, I do not know any lawyers, what do you think I am, some sort of criminal?... Why do you need a lawyer - are you a criminal???"

In Finland you don't need a lawyer unless you are a criminal or mad. Usually "mad" encompasses all kinds of business litigation, as you need to be mad to start a business here in the first place :mrgreen: . Theres actually quite a few half-decent places to help with starting up a business with little or no hassle if someone wants a few links. Having a business started with all the paperwork costs you a lot less than having to refile 3 times because omitting a thing that "everyone knows" so it wasn't even in the small print.

What Finns do then? Well, lets say for my divorce I just printed out the forms, read the law book and spent a few days on my computer. We're after all high school you have to study society and law for half a semester instead of old history in history class. Goofed up one thing with the taxes but there the good BS'ing abilities came to the rescue.
Last edited by Hank W. on Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


vp
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Post by vp » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:08 am

Why do you need a lawyer - are you a criminal???
----------------------------------------------------------

I am not a criminal :x , and just to avoid possible mistakes I wanted to use lawyer's help! Thank you anyway!


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:24 am

I am not saying *you* are a criminal, vp, just saying that in Finland using a lawyer/solicitor isn't quite as "normal" or "comfortable" as in other countries. As I said, it is a "cultural" thing. And no, I don't think it is a bad idea to get the papers rechecked by a lawyer - but I'm just thinking the money spent is if it is really worth it???

However, I gave you a link to this Mr. Kuusivaara - he is one of the few lawyers that has "immigration" on his checklist and has a webpage in English. There are a few others as well, but mainly the biggest business here is deportation hearings for asylum seekers.

No offence meant. If you cannot cope with a different culture then you need to reconsider coming here if you cannot understand we might think about things differently than you do. Getting upset like that will get you into big trouble in working life. I apologise for being rude, but one of my aims is to prepare people coming to Finland to the realities, and cultural differences, you are bound to face here. Better to get upset at home under a palm tree and sunshine than here in a meter of snow and darkness.
Last edited by Hank W. on Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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tjawatts
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Post by tjawatts » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:32 am

Hi vp

You didnt tell us what your basis for coming here is. if you did I am sure Hank can drag up all sorts of rules regarding it and perhaps tell you what you need to do.

Let us know more details. We are not lawyers but we are here to help and are fees are very low (just buy us a beer in celebration when you arrive!).

Tony ;-)


Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:36 am

vp wrote:Why do you need a lawyer - are you a criminal???
----------------------------------------------------------

I am not a criminal :x , and just to avoid possible mistakes I wanted to use lawyer's help! Thank you anyway!


That's how you will be treated after asking for a lawyer. That's mistake number one you may try to avoid.

However, if you rephrase your question to: 'I would love to come to Finland and I would like to have some info on the permits. Please, can you ...?' you may get more information.


vp
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Post by vp » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:58 am

However, if you rephrase your question to: 'I would love to come to Finland and I would like to have some info on the permits. Please, can you ...?' you may get more information.
-------------------------------------------------

Gentlemen, thank you for your advices. I am really not upset, and I just want to get as much information as possible before I jump from my palm tree and come to Finland... :P

I really like this country, and would like to start a business here, and being not EU I try to gather relative information which may help. And first obstacle is that not-EU needs somebody living in EU to setup a company... This is why I wanted to get some lawyer's names - to check the paperwork which I will do here and to be sure I am absolutely legal - because I am not an expert in Finnish legislation.

The nature of a business I hope to run here - Enterprise Resource Planning consulting (this is like SAP)

VP


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:02 am

OK, so you don't need an Immigration lawyer necessarily but a Business lawyer. Thats a different thing. You can get ready made business bought from a lawyer's "drawer" quite easily. Costing you some though...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:12 am

"And first obstacle is that not-EU needs somebody living in EU to setup a company... This is why I wanted to get some lawyer's names - to check the paperwork which I will do here and to be sure I am absolutely legal - "

First, I think you get vague answers if your questions are vague.

Second, that doesn't fit. If you have a permanent residence permit in a EU-country, you can set up the business.

Third, in Finland you don't use lawyers for that. There are, I don't know how many, officials who will give you this information for free, provided you live somewhere in Finland.

Fourth, I can imagine you want to go in the first place to a lawyer, but that's in case you are involved with business like setting up a lottery in Finland, importing and selling whisky, betting on race horses.
In these kind of cases you'd better go first to a lawyer. There are plenty who are willing to help you, provided you pay them in advance.


PeterF
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Post by PeterF » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:22 am

OK first you say that you need a lawyer to help with immigration..
Now you say it is to help you come here to set up a business.
But before you can come here to set up your business you need to get Imigrated!
You cannot make access the Finnish legal system/lawyers from "your palm tree."
I think you have missed the key point..It is not normal to use lawyers to help in these areas of imigration and/or a non resident establishing a business, therefore there are not lawyers in Finland that we can advise you to contact..however....
There is a body of Lawyers who are Non Finns they have a similar board to this one ..but I think they will want to see cash on the table and lots of it.
http://www.forum-legal.com/ilaf/


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:29 am

Actually, this thread is going to end up having some very good information once we dig it all up. More to follow.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


Caroline
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Post by Caroline » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:08 pm

vp wrote: And first obstacle is that not-EU needs somebody living in EU to setup a company... This is why I wanted to get some lawyer's names - to check the paperwork which I will do here and to be sure I am absolutely legal - because I am not an expert in Finnish legislation.

The nature of a business I hope to run here - Enterprise Resource Planning consulting (this is like SAP)

VP




I am a non-EU national myself, my husband is Finnish, and I'm also an emerging entrepreneur in "north-north" Finland (= any region north of Helsinki :mrgreen: )

I think what Hank is trying to spell out for you is that:

- if you have a good reason to be allowed to live in Finland (clearly outlined by the directorate of immigration, with no exceptions), you do not need a lawyer to get you through the process

- if you do not have a good reason to be allowed to live in Finland, a lawyer won't be able to help you anyway

conclusion: use of a lawyer is futile unless you have permission to live in Finland and are starting a business that involves a lot of licensing and special permits, for example restaurants, medical practices, schools, daycare centers, etc. Also, you do not necessarily need a Finnish partner to start your business, although some entrepreneurs in various sectors have said that it is recommended.

I took the route of enrolling in a 2-month entrepreneur training course here in Finland, and from that I learned an enormous amount of what I'll need to make the business work.

But since you ask questions regarding how to immigrate....I take it that you do not have your residency permit yet? If so, I'm sorry to say I don't think the immigration department will let you stay. The problem is that you won't be able to register your business without a Finnish personal I.D. number (henkilötunnus), which you can't get without residency approval from the immigration office.
Former expat in Finland, now living in New Hampshire USA.

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sy
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Post by sy » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:32 pm

I think you all read vp's question wrong. If you read carefully, you can see that vp is now in Finland. What he/she needs from a lawyer is how to secure a "better" residence permit status.

In this cold reality, the fact is that foreigners are classified into different and unequal castes. For the upper caste, like most people of you here in this forum, you don't need to worry about your residence permit status. You're either EU citizens, citizens from better countries, or married to Finns/EU-citizens. Of course you don't need a lawyer.

Well, for other people UVI/police systematically issue them "lower" status. Take an example, the known steps for a migrant worker are: B1 (2 years) -> A2 (2 years) -> Permanent residence. However, 2 years of B1 should not be always the case. According to the law, if you work in a industry where long term of labor shortage is anticipated, you should get A2 immediately. However, UVI/police always issues B1 first in most cases. Other examples include that when you apply after 2 years of B1, UVI/police issues again B1 status, or in some cases, issues you 3 years of A2 that delay in fact one year for you to apply PR. Also have you ever heard that some foreigners have lived continuously, but still temporarily, in Finland for more than 10 years? Rediculous, isn't it!

My opinion is, in these cases, you do need a lawyer or at least someone familiar with immigration laws to help you to prepare your application: to indicate clearly your demand, to gather relevant documents to support your claim, to cite indisputably the applicable law paragraphs. In case of rejection, then you definitely need a lawyer to represent you in the appeal court.

About the "culture" thing that people don't need a lawyer in Finland. Well, I think for Finns, because they know already, or know how to find the related regulations, of course they don't need a lawyer. But for foreigners, that's not the case.


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