Does my bf have to leave Finland ? Help!!

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:10 am

Sorry, I was just referring to "tradition" because the paperwork will be hard. The thing is the magic "2 years" of cohabiting that is required.

PROOF!=? PROOF!=? PROOF!=?

Now if there is evidence (=lease with both names, or a registration document showing both names) then you can prove something. If they get nasty and ask too many questions.

What I've heard from people in India this idea of 'cohabiting before marriage' is a no-no thing, as well as I know the drastic step of getting married is something else than a piece of paper, so that is another thing then again.

But at the end of the day, being married is one of the few 'proven' things, though even that is not calculated if they are suspecting an 'arranged paper marriage'.
Last edited by Hank W. on Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.


Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.

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distantspaces
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Post by distantspaces » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:13 am

Hank W. wrote:If you do not want your parents see this in India it is one paper in Finland, give us a break you cannot do this in India traditionally this cohabiting anyhow, so go to the magistrate and sign the papers.
What is with the one long sentence?

Anyway, what made you think UVI makes things so simple? Quoting from their info-sheet:
If your spouse is applying for a residence permit on the basis of marriage, you will have to present your marriage certificate. The marriage must have been registered in Finland and as a rule also in the home country of the foreign spouse.
Getting married is not just signing one paper in Finland. Seems like they would like to have another paper from India as well.

Still, as I said before, getting married increases your chances. You could try applying as cohabitants, but the minimum limit is 2 years, and you do not satisfy that. Ofcourse, if UVI tries to look at your circumstances, then the fact that you are almost about to get A status, that you have lived with your BF for almost 2 years, and that you have bought an apartment in Finland (is the apartment in your name, or registered to both of you? - maybe better if it belongs to both of you on paper), should help your BF to get a residence permit based on you.

But you can see yourself, there are some "almosts" in your case, and when it comes to Finnish immigration authorities, this is reason enough for them to deny you happiness.

Little girl, kya ghar walon ko is kahani ke baarey mein pataa hai? :wink:


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:20 am

Sorry about the long sentences, as you can see I proofread the stuff.
:wink:
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:24 am

distantspaces wrote:[Getting married is not just signing one paper in Finland. Seems like they would like to have another paper from India as well.
If a Finnish couple resident say in India gets married in India, the requirement of being acknowledged is they present the fact at the Embassy, which submits the data to Finland it is then put into the general register. I'd suppose the Indian embassy here would present a similar registration service and give a receipt?
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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distantspaces
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Post by distantspaces » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:43 am

Hank W. wrote:What I've heard from people in India this idea of 'cohabiting before marriage' is a no-no thing, as well as I know the drastic step of getting married is something else than a piece of paper, so that is another thing then again.
And that is why, if this guy has to leave Finland, and go back to India, he is most likely never going to get a permit on the basis of cohabiting.

Wombat, the law does state that the two are the same thing, but the embassies are well aware of the cultural traditions of countries as well. In my opinion, the only way for him to get a residence permit once he is in India, is to get married to 'little girl'. I will be skeptical about any other scenario, knowing the Finnish Embassy in India. Yes, laws exist, but they are not applied consistently. (Do remember that in this case, the couple does NOT satisfy the 2-year rule, so it is very easy to deny the permit, simply based on the law, and refusing to look at personal circumstances)

Yes, if he applies while still in finland (if he is allowed to), then they can play the cohabiting card, in which case, 2 things could happen:
- either he gets the residence permit, problem solved.
- he does not get it, he is sent back to India. Then, the only way out of this would be that she goes back,they get married, and then he reapplies. The whole thing could now take some 6 months.

I think getting married is the safest bet. You can still apply on the basis of cohabitation, but be prepared to go through the appeals court in that case. I don't think the police would be kind enough to grant a permit just like that.


littlegirl
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some more info.

Post by littlegirl » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:48 am

1. Yes, we can provide the docs that we stay together in Finland for 1.5 years

2. The small apartment is under both names on paper

3. If he can get a job before his visa expired, does he need to go back to India to change his visa type from student status to work status ? Is it possible to do it ? Is there any possibility to get rejected ?

4. If he apply to change his status next month, it will take about 4 or 5 months to get the results, and at that moment, we are officially to be together for 2 years, so can we apply again ? ( let his status dependent on me )

Thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

worried girl :cry:


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distantspaces
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Re: some more info.

Post by distantspaces » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:30 am

littlegirl wrote: 3. If he can get a job before his visa expired, does he need to go back to India to change his visa type from student status to work status ? Is it possible to do it ? Is there any possibility to get rejected ?
I don't think he would have to return to India. He would need to submit proof to the police that either he has finished his studies, or then he has left his studies. Then, he could apply as a worker, instead of a student, provided he gets a job, and a work permit for it as well.

Atleast when I had asked the police, they had said that a student does not have to leave Finland if he already has a job. They just wanted the documents showing that my studies are over, and that I also have a job, and then they would process a new residence permit.

Still, makes sense to go to your local police and check with them.


Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:24 pm

"The small apartment is under both names on paper "

What does the Finnish law say about this:

If a foreigner owns here an appartment,house,summar cottage, or kiinteistö
does that affect the residence permit?


sy
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Re: Thanks Wambat!!!!

Post by sy » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:01 pm

littlegirl wrote:We can prove that we have stayed in one apartment in Finland for one and half year.... and we bought a very small apartment in Finland ( using our savings ) as we planned to stay here for long... will that be put into consideration ???
If the appartment you bought belongs to both of you, i.e., you both are owners of the appartment, plus the fact that you both have lived together for one and a half years, in my opinion, this co-habitation is strongly established, your boyfriend should be able to apply for the residence permit dependent on you. Otherwise, the you can appeal based on the Aliens Act Section 20 "refusing a residence permit would be clearly unreasonable".

Do apply it in Finland! Because if the application is refused in Finland, your bf has the right to appeal. If he applies in India, he doesn't have the right to appeal to a negative decision. The appeal process can take 9-12 months, then during this period his circumstance could be improved, e.g., getting a job, or by then you both will have lived for two years, that will further strengthen his ground to get the residence permit.

BTW, owning a real estate in Finland doesn't guarantee a residence permit in Finland.
Last edited by sy on Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


sy
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Re: some more info.

Post by sy » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:18 pm

distantspaces wrote:
littlegirl wrote: 3. If he can get a job before his visa expired, does he need to go back to India to change his visa type from student status to work status ? Is it possible to do it ? Is there any possibility to get rejected ?
I don't think he would have to return to India. He would need to submit proof to the police that either he has finished his studies, or then he has left his studies. Then, he could apply as a worker, instead of a student, provided he gets a job, and a work permit for it as well.

Atleast when I had asked the police, they had said that a student does not have to leave Finland if he already has a job. They just wanted the documents showing that my studies are over, and that I also have a job, and then they would process a new residence permit.

Still, makes sense to go to your local police and check with them.
He doesn't have to return to India to change the status. He can apply it in Finland if he is already in Finland.

The "either finish studies, or leave studies, before applying for the work permit" is totally an urban legend. The police keeps saying this, but it's not based on any law text! The truth is that if you have a job, then you can apply for the work permit and residence permit based on your job. Helsinki Adminstrative Court (Helsingin hallinto-oikeus) has given verdicts on many this kind of appeal cases.

BTW, the coming Aliens Act states clearly that you can apply for a different type of residence permit based on your new ground while you're in Finland. For example, if you are a student, you'll get B-type residence permit. If later you find a job, than you'll get A-type residence permit. I guess that the police is also changing their opinions slowly nowadays.


Wombat

Post by Wombat » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:26 pm

distantspaces wrote:Wombat, the law does state that the two are the same thing, but the embassies are well aware of the cultural traditions of countries as well. In my opinion, the only way for him to get a residence permit once he is in India, is to get married to 'little girl'. I will be skeptical about any other scenario, knowing the Finnish Embassy in India. Yes, laws exist, but they are not applied consistently.
The Finnish Embassy in India is not responsible for decision. This is outlined in Section 8 of The Finnish Aliens Decree:

An application for a residence permit to be made under Section 18 c of the Aliens Act shall be submitted to a Finnish mission. The mission shall forward the application documents together with its statement to the Directorate of Immigration for a decision.

Section 18 c is Preconditions for Issuing a Residence Permit Abroad on the Basis of a Family Tie. This is not relevant in this case as her boyfriend currently resides in Finland. If they chose to file the application based on family ties, the application can be filed in Finland.

As sy pointed out earlier, owning a property in Finland makes no difference when applying for a residence permit but the fact that they own the apartment together, shows that cohabitation with marriage is strongly established. Although the law does state a minimum of two years, they are actually seeking a comparison of that equal to marriage. That's the reason why if the couple had a common child, it would not be necessary to fulfill the two year period.


dpieber
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Re: Thanks Wambat!!!!

Post by dpieber » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:51 pm

sy wrote:If he applies in India, he doesn't have the right to appeal to a negative decision.
Are you sure about this? When I applied for my first residence permit at the Finnish Consulate in Toronto, they made a point of informing me that I had the right to appeal any decision made. And the decision was made in Finland at the Directorate of Immigration, not at the Finnish Embassy in Canada.


sy
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Re: Thanks Wambat!!!!

Post by sy » Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:39 am

dpieber wrote:
sy wrote:If he applies in India, he doesn't have the right to appeal to a negative decision.
Are you sure about this? When I applied for my first residence permit at the Finnish Consulate in Toronto, they made a point of informing me that I had the right to appeal any decision made. And the decision was made in Finland at the Directorate of Immigration, not at the Finnish Embassy in Canada.
OK, you're right. It seems that a foreigner can appeal the decision made by UVI, whether he or she is in Finland or abroad. However, in practice and in most cases it's difficult to appeal the decision if you're not in Finland. How can you find a lawyer outside Finland who is familiar with Finnish immigration laws, or even the appeal procedure.

Back to the case in this thread. If the boy stays in Finland and applies for the residence permit on the ground of 1.5 years co-habitation and the shared ownership of an appartment, then he can stay in Finland to wait for the decision and thus the co-habitation continues. Let's hope UVI or police will agree this and issue the residence permit. If they deny the residence permit, the boy can appeal to the decision and still can stay in Finland (he is legally staying in Finland, even through without a permit yet), thus the co-habitation still continues. When the court gives the verdict, the co-habitation will be 2 years by then. So whether the verdict from the court is positive or negative, he can then apply again for the residence permit in Finland (if the court decision is positive) or in India (if the court decision is negative).

However, if the boy goes back to India and apply there for the residence permit, the co-habitation discontinues. Thus it gives a reason for UVI to deny the application, and he'll have less chances to win in the court even if he appeals the decision.


littlegirl
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More questions

Post by littlegirl » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:24 am

Thanks so very much you all for your kindly help :D . Here, I come out with more questions

1. If he want to quit from univ. and change the visa type from student to work, what document need to be shown to police office ?
2. Where and how to get the document, from school? Are they willing to give this kind of infromation?

Any experience for this to share?

Worried girl


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