Huge bureaucracy in Finnish Immigration System:(

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sacred_cycles
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Huge bureaucracy in Finnish Immigration System:(

Post by sacred_cycles » Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:07 am

I never beleived before how stupid & bureaucratic Finnish Immigration system is...

I'm a foreign student (non-EU) in Finland. But I've been living together with my girl-friend (who's a Finn) for 1 year & we've a child together. Based on that I applied to change my status (of residence permit) last May(9 months ago) to local Police. When I applied the said it'll take maximum 5 months for processing. But after 5 months, I got a letter from UVI that they just got my application & they'll process. So, as it's already 9 months I tried to call them (they've 1 pay number for enquiry)..but whenever I call them they just say they r processing & they don't know how long it'll take & they told me to contact the person who's handling my case...but he/she never answers the call.

I'm sure I've no problem with my application bcoz they never asked/contacted from me any additional documents & I think they r just lazy...
Now I'm really disappointed for this long waiting time. How long one can wait?

Do u ppl have any idea where I can complain about this bureaucratic procedure?


Any advice/suggestions is welcomed!



Huge bureaucracy in Finnish Immigration System:(

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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:22 am

Average (they claim) is 4 months, but can be 3 years.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


PeterF
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Re: Huge bureaucracy in Finnish Immigration System:(

Post by PeterF » Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:29 am

sacred_cycles wrote: Do u ppl have any idea where I can complain about this bureaucratic procedure?


Any advice/suggestions is welcomed!
Here is about the only place that anyone will listen and sympathise..
If you complaint to them they just move your application from near the top of one persons in box to the bottom of anothers persons in box.

Much the same as in any other country..Finland is not the inventor of bureaucracy.

Just be patient and enjoy the weather :wink:


Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:02 pm

Well with a kid it's easier in Finland. You may contact the social offices in the place you live and ask whether somebody would like to phone for you to the UVI to speed up things. .

Otherwise enjoy your time in Finland. Clean the house, do the laundry etc. , with a baby in Finland, they can't kick you out.

One bureacrat asking the other bureacrat something is completely different than one citizen asking something. (Viranomaisten kesken tiedonsaanti ja anti). It's even regulated by different laws.


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AlKo
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Post by AlKo » Fri Jan 30, 2004 1:36 pm

Hi,
Are you in a hurry to change your status or is there any other reason to be warried? The bereaucracy in Finland exists as well as everywhere else when it is question about a permanent residence. To become a citizen of any country is not enough to find a girl and make a baby.
Just stay with your family and take good care of your finnish gf and the future finnish citizen and everything will come with the time.
Other wise it looks like the change of the status was the most important reason in the issue. :lol:


sacred_cycles
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Post by sacred_cycles » Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:09 pm

AlKo wrote:Hi,
Are you in a hurry to change your status or is there any other reason to be warried? The bereaucracy in Finland exists as well as everywhere else when it is question about a permanent residence. To become a citizen of any country is not enough to find a girl and make a baby.
Just stay with your family and take good care of your finnish gf and the future finnish citizen and everything will come with the time.
Other wise it looks like the change of the status was the most important reason in the issue. :lol:
It's very sad to hear ur comments. I'm not worry at all...I just want my passport back no matter it's positive or negative. I've not been to my home country for 4 years & without passport I can't travel anywhere. The permit expires on June every year so, for renewal I've to submit passport again(& I don't know how long it'll take again).

For us who r students we've long holidays only in summer. But if it's(passport) always there how the hell I'll go(am I some kind of prisoner here???) may be u don't have parents/relatives to visit to ur home country...BUT I'VE....& normally every ppl vist their parents/relatives in the holiday...

AlKo ....may b u think matter like that.....but I didn't have finnish gf/child for that reason. I didn't came here for better life (most probably U came here for that)...I came here to study & I've much more better life back in home country.

PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANY STUPID COMMENTS BASED ON GUESSING.


sy
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Post by sy » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:49 pm

Yep, I have been, and I am still, a victim of UVI, in similar cases as yours.

First I want to say, that waiting for a decision of your application for a long time is a mentally stressful process because of the uncertainty. In your eyes, your application is crystal clear. You just can't understand why it will take so long time, and you'll have a fear that your application might be turned down.

Second, bureaucracy in other countries should not be a reason why bureaucracy in Finland should be allowed, or why shouldn't we become efficient in Finland...

Third, the delaying in processing applications of residents in Finland is a violation of Finnish Constitution. Finnish Constitution states in Section 21: "Everyone has the right to have his or her case dealt with appropriately and WITHOUT UNDUE DELAY by a legally competent court of law or other authority, as well as to have a decision pertaining to his or her rights or obligations reviewed by a court of law or other independent organ for the administration of justice." Please note that "everyone" here not only means Finnish citizens, but also legal residents in Finland.

Forth, the delaying in processing applications is actually a violation of human rights. (You would probably disagree, Finland is a model country that respects human rights.) In Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13 (2) states that "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country". By seizing the applicant's passport for a long time, UVI actually violates the applicant's right to leave Finland.

I'm planning to send petitions to the President of the Republic, the Prime Minister, the Minister of Interior, the Obdusman for Minorities (yes, we're minorities in Finland :!: ), the Director of UVI. And I've collected their contact information. I'm kind of busy right now, thus have no time to prepare the petition. If you want to do so, there are the contact info. Maybe someone here can organize a campaign. I read that . was established also with an idea of political influence group. Maybe you grand old IESAFers should start some actions.

Tasavallan presidentti Tarja Halonen
Tasavallan presidentin kanslia
Mariankatu 2
00170 Helsinki Puhelin:
(09) 661 133 Telekopio:
(09) 630 292 Sähköposti:
[email protected]



Pääministeri Matti Vanhanen
Valtioneuvoston kanslia

Snellmaninkatu 1 A, Helsinki
PL 23, 00023 Valtioneuvosto
Puh. (09) 160 01 tai (09) 578 11 (vaihde)
Faksi (09) 1602 2165
Sähköposti: [email protected]
Kirjaamon sähköposti: [email protected]
http://www.vnk.fi


Sisäasiainministeriö
Sisäasiainministeri Kari Rajamäki
Kirkkokatu 12, Helsinki
PL 26, 00023 Valtioneuvosto
Puh. (09) 160 01 tai (09) 578 11
Faksi (09) 1604 4635
Sähköposti: [email protected]
Kirjaamon sähköposti: [email protected]
http://www.intermin.fi


Vähemmistövaltuutettu Mikko Puumalainen
Työministeriö
Mikonkatu 4, 5. krs
PL 34
00023 VALTIONEUVOSTO
Puhelin: (09) 160 06 (vaihde)
Faksi: (09) 1604 7002
Sähköposti:[email protected]


UVI
Ylijohtaja Matti Saarelainen

Yhteystiedot

Puhelinvaihde 476 5500
Ohivalinta 476 55...
Telekopio 4765 5858

Suuntanumero Suomesta soitettaessa 09
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Katuosoite
Panimokatu 2 A
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Asiakaspalvelu
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Sähköposti
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Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:09 pm

sacred_cycles wrote:
AlKo wrote:PLEASE DON'T MAKE ANY STUPID COMMENTS BASED ON GUESSING.
No, that's not the case, but there are many similar cases in Finland.

Isn't it so , that you can get your passport from the UVI back in one day, if you say you have to travel to another country. I thought they made such a regulation.

Then something from the old days: the withdrawal of the passport is indeed a violation of the human rights. It's about time Finland gets a huge fine for this. Something like 50 million Euro or so, so that they will change in one day.

Anyhow this Finnish procedure was known at the embassy of my country, so, you could ask for a second passport, one was at the SUSTO and the other one you travelled with, because in those days the administration of this country was not really trusted.

That was a long time ago. But, if the UVI still has this practice, then there is a good reason to apply for a second passport, if that is possible.

By the way, the state of Finland is regularly convicted for violation of human rights. This is not the first time.
This week in the newspaper the practice of KELA to judge about the diseases of elderly people by using docters who remain anonomous and who have never seen their patients.

Oh boy, do those guys who recently left impivaaran erämaa have problems to learn the international aapinen.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:14 pm

You guys aren't alone.

Well, its not like Finland's not been reprimanded in the EU human rights court several times over long process times (court cases that drag on 5-10 years). Don't know of any verdicts on residence permits though.

And its not anything new the UVI processing times are long as a famine year.

The ombudsman board of due process rights... whatever it is in English really made this statement 18.6.2002
http://www.oikeusturva-asiainneuvottelu ... /14506.htm

There has been a Written Question in Parliament KK 625/2003 by Arto Bryggare re student permits:
http://www.minedu.fi/etusivu/arkisto/20 ... liset.html
(answer was the regular blaadeblaa)

And of course, at the end you are presented such figures that "you cannot be hungry"
http://www.uvi.fi/pdf/vuosiker2002.pdf

English Summary is there, but what is interesting is page 20 "process times in days" :? 4 1/2 months as average time?

This all will be then reshuffled when the new Aliens' Act passes Parliament.
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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Hank W.
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Post by Hank W. » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:18 pm

Tom and Jerry wrote:Isn't it so , that you can get your passport from the UVI back in one day, if you say you have to travel to another country. I thought they made such a regulation.
Yes, but it is (was) that you de jure "withdrew" your application and now you de facto "put it at the bottom of the pile"...
Cheers, Hank W.
sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.


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AlKo
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Post by AlKo » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:16 pm

Hank W. wrote:
Tom and Jerry wrote:Isn't it so , that you can get your passport from the UVI back in one day, if you say you have to travel to another country. I thought they made such a regulation.
Yes, but it is (was) that you de jure "withdrew" your application and now
you de facto "put it at the bottom of the pile"...
Wrong Hank, anyone can "borrow" the passport for as long as needed to travel and come back. I know it for sure,, from experiance with the tunisian.
When faith is lost, when honor dies, the man is dead.
Author: John Greenleaf Whittier


sy
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Post by sy » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:53 pm

AlKo wrote:Wrong Hank, anyone can "borrow" the passport for as long as needed to travel and come back. I know it for sure,, from experiance with the tunisian.
Yes, you can borrow the passport out. But the usual situation is that your current residence permit will expire soon. If you travel to other countries after the permit expires, how can you get back to Finland without a valid residence permit?

It is said that you could get into Finland with the certificate stating that you're applying for the permit. However things are more complicated. With the Schengen treaty, if you travel to Finland via another Schengen country, how can the border guard of that country recognize a certificate issued by Finnish authority? Also not only border guards of Schengen countries check whether you have a valid permit to Finland, the border guards of other countries and the airlines also check that.

With so much trouble, it's just better to cancel your trip. This way, you're confined in Finland, and can't leave Finland "freely".


sacred_cycles
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Post by sacred_cycles » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:28 am

sy wrote: With so much trouble, it's just better to cancel your trip. This way, you're confined in Finland, and can't leave Finland "freely".
Thank u so much "sy" and others for all ur thoughtful comments. I understood that I've no other way except waiting. BUT this is discrimination & unless we don't take any initiative thing like this will continue...


Tom and Jerry

Post by Tom and Jerry » Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:28 pm

Let the dog bite its own tail. One of the principles of the EU is a free movement of persons. The commission is very sensitive to infringements of these.

You may look with the key words: infringement and free movement of persons and EU at google. I think other EU-countries, like France and Spain, have got a warning for a similar problem.

You can send in your own words a complaint to SOLVIT in which you make clear that in your case the Finnish authoritiy hinders you in your travelling to other EU countries. You can send it to their Finnish office or directly to them.

They have so many clever lawyers, that they in turn will keep the Finnish ones at the UVI busy for some time. And... a complaint to SOLVIT is different from a complaint to the Finnish authorities: the UVI has to and are forced to answer.

In Finland the UVI has quite a lot of power, and they are so brutal that they even may turn down a request from other Finnis authorities. But, they can't turn down a request for information from the EU.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/secretariat_g ... dex_en.htm


BAT

Post by BAT » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:53 pm

Sacred_cycles, if you have the possibility of work, perhaps your employer could send a fax stating their need for you to work right away. This might help speed your application along. Also, your application might be speeded up if you marry the mother of your child, although you should only do this if you want to marry her of course! These seemed to be in my favour when I came to Finland. I got my permit in three weeks because of my marital status and my work status.


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