jahasjahas wrote:
No, you said they have to "leave their culture". All of it. Now you're saying that they have to drop everything that "conflicts with existing native culture". What does "conflicting" mean, and who decides what's conflicting and what's not? You do realise that there are cultural conflicts within Finnish culture (like "do we teach religion in school?" or "is it okay to be drunk in public?"), and there will always be.
Let's bend some railway track to make it clear to you... Conflict is any situation where same situation has different generally accepted rule for Finnish culture and immigrant culture.
As for "religion at school" or "being drunk in public" are not cultural conflicts. Finns frown upon drunkards out in the open, it however is minor offense culturally. But still condemned. Religion in Finnish society is considered private thing.
Of course culture exists. That isn't what I said at all. But you can't say that X is or isn't a part of Finnish culture if there are, in fact, Finns that do or believe X.
Of course I can! If they are irrelevant, tiny majority, then it is not culture. Culture is not about what some random individual does or does not, but what society as collective considers acceptable.
In case you are missing the point, culture can have norms even if some are not followed by all. Same way someone can break the law without making it disappear. Or do you assume that law does not exist if someone breaks it?
Haven't you noticed that behaviors that weren't allowed before (wearing short skirts in public) are allowed now, while behaviors that were allowed (hitting your child) aren't? Culture CAN NOT be frozen into a snapshot that you like. Even if we completely close the borders and don't allow anyone to the country, new ideas will still a) develop on their own and b) be imported from elsewhere.
Who said culture does not change? But culture changes with FINNS. If Finns want short skirts, then short skirts become accepted. If they do not, they do not. I also notice that you yourself conflicted with your own statement. Even when short skirts were frowned upon, there were short skirts. So by your logic, it cannot be part of Finnish culture if single Finn was not following that norm.
Finns change Finnish culture, foreigners do not have right to demand anything. Also, every change has to fit EXISTING framework. Accepting short skirts did not radically alter Finnish culture, it simply shifted the existing bar of acceptable lenght of skirt slightly. Sudden demand for every woman to wear potato sack would not actually fit existing culture, thus it cannot be part of culture.
I'm all for cultural relativism in the sense that no culture is objectively better than another. But everyone, you and me, can of course have their opinions on things that different people from different cultures do. We have the right to say that behavior X is not acceptable, or we can even try to make it illegal. But simply saying "you must abandon your culture" does not make sense and won't make anyone change their behavior.
Then they should be made to face the music. Either learn to live in Finland as Finns do, or leave. Face unemployment, social shunning. It is not racism, it is you failing to adjust to your surroundings. Leave or adjust.
I see you defend rape then. Because for islamists it is not rape if woman was "asking for it".
Again, that's not what you said. Keep moving the goalposts until you're right. (How would it change your argument if, for example, all the Hungarians did speak perfect Finnish? Would immigrants retaining their culture be ok then?)
Do you call what most 3rd or so forth generation "Finns" to be Finnish? It is not. If it cannot be spoken in Finland without raisin eyebrows, it is not Finnish. There is simple duck test for you.
And immigrants with conflicting cultural norms have to forfeit them regardless of language skills.
Culture maintains cohesion and stability of society.
How on earth do you get this from anything I or Kutittaa said? Of course nobody is allowed to break the law or harm others. The fact that something is a "part of the culture" doesn't mean it's okay.
Of course it does. You see, rape is not rape in islamic culture if woman was asking for it. They do not see themselves breaking the law as their culture defines those women as "public property". Or, to put it more simply, their culture understand certain things as "yes, I want sex". If woman says "yes, I want sex", then it is not rape.
Get the point? Cultures have different views even on something as simple as this.
And how much crap France is getting from it? It is start of reaction I spoke of. Natives have been pushed too far, now comes the backlash.