Black People in Finland

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Vesper
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Vesper » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:48 pm

When I lived there for 2 1/2 months, I rarely saw any africans. Maybe like around 15 individuals the whole time I lived there. But, I lived mostly in Uusikaupaunki and sometimes visited Turku. I saw most of them at the University exam, a few at the Turku market, one at the airport, at the gas station filling up his tank, and grocery store. It was either a small family of three or individuals, but not a group of friends hanging out. Mostly males, a few females, healthy looking & lean, not obesite. Though I saw more Africans than Hispanics, I only saw one Spanish woman walking on the streets of Turku.



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skandagupta
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by skandagupta » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:07 am

soul316 wrote:Switchblade327,

Thats the kind of response I was looking for. For example, I've been to Argentina before. Argentina claimed to have over 10,000 people of African descent, but I never saw one when I went out to clubs, bars, malls, etc. Therefore, I concluded that black people just aren't that integrated into Argentinian society.


Onkko says there are 20,000 black people? The only estimate I can find puts the number at 5,000 Somali immigrants. I think he may be exaggerating a little. Also Onkko's response is what I'm afraid of. He paints a picture in which black people are basically isolated from society and looked down upon as people who just make more Somali babies to leech off of the system. Mexican immigrants have the same stereotype in the US and aren't that integrated into mainstream society. I don't want to be like a Mexican immigrant if I come here, lol.

While I understand that you will see black people on the streets in places like Helsinki, I still would imagine that it will be a lot fewer than say in a major US city or even in a rural town in the US. Thats moreso my concern. Would even a city like Helsinki be a lot whiter than the average US city or rural town for me? In addition, I also want to know about the social setting here. If I was to be invited to a party, bar, or club; or if I went to some kind of social event, would I see people of African descent there? I'm guessing the answer would be mostly no. I'm looking that the pictures from that multicultural festival, and there just aren't that many black people. And this is a multicultural festival! I know this sound crazy, but its something I want to know about before I make a decision to move to a particular country.

Also, wold I be treated more kindly if people find out I am an African American instead of a Somali immigrant? Or are all people of African descent lumped together?

And to Pursivant: by Black I mean a person of primarily African descent. And no, a person only counts once. So give me your estimate, kind sir :)


I would like to hear some more opinions.
I don't want to be like a Mexican immigrant if I come here, lol.
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switchblade327
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by switchblade327 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:08 am

soul316 wrote: I do understand that I might have more in common with native Finnish people than the African immigrants. With that written, I come from an incredibly racially-conscious background; and I've always felt a certain comfort level when around black people. I can't help that, sadly. But on the other hand, I would like to experience a European country. I have a Finnnish friend who really hyped up Finland. Hence, my post here.
Onkko is likely on the mark here (I don't know you so I can't say for sure) and this might be a problem for you. I think the whole bonding by 'race' as opposed to true ethnicity is a notion that seems limited to the US and maybe other countries with a recent history of institutional racism (Australia, South Africa).

Everywhere else, skin color seems pretty tertiary to ethnicity, at least everywhere in Europe I've spent much time. When you think about it objectively, it's a pretty beautiful thing; people are brought together by common culture, language, values and life experiences rather then whether they were born as a star-bellied or a plain-bellied sneetch.

Part of moving abroad is leaving your comfort zone and expanding your horizons which usually a good thing. If this is something you can't get over but you still want to move abroad to somewhere where there are a lot of black people who you (as a westerner) might be able to relate to, I would recommend London.

AldenG
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by AldenG » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:26 am

If all you want is a Nordic country, it would be much easier to move to Stockholm. You'd have a good chance of learning the language in just a handful of years without devoting every waking moment to it. (I believe that most foreigners who are in Finland for five years do not learn a functionally useful amount of Finnish and thus conduct most of their life in English; but I could be wrong on the proportion.) People in Sweden would bend over backwards to show how un-race-conscious they are by befriending you just because you happen to be . . . oh, I don't know, probably because you just happen to be so nice. Because they're un-race-conscious, you see. It wouldn't be just because you're black. Honestly! :lol:

Stockholm and Helsinki are both beautiful, enlightened, lively cities each in their different way. They definitely have differences, not least of all arising from their size. Some of the distinctive features are good and some are not, but there are good reasons to love either one. There is an order of magnitude more ethnic and cultural diversity in Stockholm but Helsinki is not an all-white backwater, either.

And as Switchblade points out, if it's not Scandinavia in particular but merely Europe you crave, there are plenty of diverse and welcoming cities in Europe. In that perspective and on those criteria, the only thing that speaks for Finland or Helsinki is their smallness and the kinds of advantages that arise from it.
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soul316
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by soul316 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 1:28 am

switchblade327 wrote:
soul316 wrote: I do understand that I might have more in common with native Finnish people than the African immigrants. With that written, I come from an incredibly racially-conscious background; and I've always felt a certain comfort level when around black people. I can't help that, sadly. But on the other hand, I would like to experience a European country. I have a Finnnish friend who really hyped up Finland. Hence, my post here.
Onkko is likely on the mark here (I don't know you so I can't say for sure) and this might be a problem for you. I think the whole bonding by 'race' as opposed to true ethnicity is a notion that seems limited to the US and maybe other countries with a recent history of institutional racism (Australia, South Africa).

Everywhere else, skin color seems pretty tertiary to ethnicity, at least everywhere in Europe I've spent much time. When you think about it objectively, it's a pretty beautiful thing; people are brought together by common culture, language, values and life experiences rather then whether they were born as a star-bellied or a plain-bellied sneetch.

Part of moving abroad is leaving your comfort zone and expanding your horizons which usually a good thing. If this is something you can't get over but you still want to move abroad to somewhere where there are a lot of black people who you (as a westerner) might be able to relate to, I would recommend London.
This is a great post and 100% true. I guess I was expecting there to be some Finnish version of African American culture that exists in the US. For example, if a black person comes from anywhere outside the US, he can expect to be able to immerse himself into the black culture of the US quite easily. As you wrote, people primarily bond base off of race here in the US.

It seems that if I want to make the move to Finland, the friends and acquaintances I would make would most likely be white. I'm actually fine with that, although it would take some adjustments on my part. I'm prepared to do that. Thanks a lot for your insights Switchblade327.

If anyone else has any more comments, please join the discussion.

Rob A.
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Rob A. » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:25 am

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Last edited by Rob A. on Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soyyo
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by soyyo » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:26 am

I'll ask my friend when she comes back.

I think coming to visit is your best bet to see how you feel about things. I see a lot more than 10-15 black people per week.

Also, just what you'll be doing here has an affect. I am married to a finn, and not here for a job. This means I take part in programs to integrate immigrants, and I meet people from all over the world often. I actually enjoy this a lot.

Come for that visit and see what you think.
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soyyo
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by soyyo » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:34 am

soul316 wrote:This is a great post and 100% true. I guess I was expecting there to be some Finnish version of African American culture that exists in the US. For example, if a black person comes from anywhere outside the US, he can expect to be able to immerse himself into the black culture of the US quite easily. As you wrote, people primarily bond base off of race here in the US.
You touched on one difference between Finland and the US here. It is much easier for most immigrants to immerse in American society and become American than it is to do the same here in Finland, regardless of race. The US is a country of immigrants. I think it's rare for any immigrant to be seen as Finnish, ever. It doesn't bother me much, but it bothers some people.
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interleukin
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by interleukin » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:43 am

Well unless you decide that the Somalis are your only friends and you decide to hang out with them only, I think you will not be stuck in some "Somali/African culture black people" bubble. If I see someone black in Helsinki that does not look Somali (or similar), I assume the person is an American tourist or a highly educated person that Nokia imported.
Your big problem will be that everyone directly knows that you are a foreigner because you look like one. So your social network is likely to be other expats and people you may get to know through work. You will be, at first, a black person that does not speak English, further reinforcing ideas from people that do not know you that you are here to "use the system". So your social network will be people who get to know you and see that you are a hard-working person, contributing with taxes.
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Pursuivant
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:24 am

soul316 wrote: I guess I was expecting there to be some Finnish version of African American culture that exists in the US.
But we didn't import slaves. The immigrants living here are here out of their own volition and usually integrated. So there is no separate ghetto culture formed. The different Africans some of them have less western gear and their own stuff - but they're sometimes vehemently racist against each other. See now its nothing to do with color, that culture thing. I had a west-African roommate in college back in the day the first Somalians came over and some skinheads had been harassing him on the street - he was really upset - not because some drunks jeered at him as he could jeer back but "those skinheads stupid, I don't look like a somalian do I". BTW calling someone in these parts a "Caucasian" gets you punched as "caucasians" are "blacks" to us :lol: And I really wonder why people insist being called with a racial slur like "black" when we just phased that out, well :roll: foreigners are kinda weird at times...
soul316 wrote:For example, if a black person comes from anywhere outside the US, he can expect to be able to immerse himself into the black culture of the US quite easily.
Yes well here the first thing I said to one fresh student was you don't go associate with your countrymen or others you see loitering about the train station. You go with the ghetto kids you get treated like the ghetto kids. Theres some bad people preying on newcomers getting them in trouble because the newcomers are naive about how things are.

The problem you will have is that "American chip" on your shoulder as you pointed out. The thing is Finland isn't politically correct nor "race-conscious" so you coming here with "American" attitudes you will very quickly find people telling you to piss off back to Africa because we used to live in a country with no racial hangups. Nobody here had to sit in the back of the bus nor did you have to take a service elevator. So a black person is called a "neekeri" just like Spanish say "negro" and its got nothing to do with what Americans speak in English. See as you treat us like your "Caucasians" we will act like them, you give me some jive I'll go Bubba on your ass. Respect here is not given, it is earned. And nobody is your friend until they know you.

So ditch that KFC and watermelon crap off your baggage and come over as a person - you might find you actually will be treated like one. Mind you we also have our share of rednecks but you need to be able to see things from the local point of view. And as I tell people - if you segregate yourself and only hang around "your own kind" what does that make you, and why do you then cry discrimination after the fact? Its a foreign country, so things are not like at home. If things were like at home, it wouldn't be a foreign country. And theres no KFC either.

One guy you might look up is Eugene Holman, he is African-American, professor of Finnish language at the Helsinki uni and he moved here in the 1970's. He can tell you how things were then he was not the 2% he was one of the two African-Americans in the whole country. BTW Finland now has 2,6% foreigners in the country.
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:40 am

Rob A. wrote:My, my what an unusually civil thread....Is this the same Finland Forum I've learned to love so much?? ... What's happened??
Well it was a civilized start. You get the answers you deserve. It wasn't some stupid foreigner coming foaming how racist Finland is nobody sat next to him on the bus. Yeah, to the OP they won't. Not next to me neither. Its nothing personal... err... it is everything personal - its personal space.
Rob A. wrote:Though on a serious note to the OP....have you considered what it takes for a non-EU citizen to get a work permit and a job in an EU country??? ....And how about your Finnish skills???... Non-existent I assume... :D
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Pursuivant
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:04 am

California USA back in the 90's:
Bosswoman: OMG we getting a new employee and we haven't got a place to put him into.
Me: Well theres the empty room in our hut where I room with Marcel (french intern)
Bosswoman: "You can't put a white person live there, its full of Mexicans"
Me: "Darn I've got a good tan"
Bosswoman: "You're different, you're Europeans"

:lol:
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biscayne
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by biscayne » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:16 am

Statistics are statistics and don't always give a realistic picture. For example, Helsinki: depending on which part of Helsinki you hang around, you might go through a week without seeing a single "person of colour", on the other hand, if you are in certain areas, you may see many persons from multi-ethnic backgrounds. I think that the reality of the situation is that Finns in general are not particularly "warm" towards persons of colour, because the first group of such persons who arrived in Finland were refugees from Somalia who were basically "forced" on Finland, they came via Russia and basically landed on Finland's doorstep and to save political face, Finland basically had to take them in. This group, it is fair to say, have never really integrated and generally are welfare dependent. Obviously, they have managed to get other family members in, and have had - many- children, thus increasing their population and generally, their level of welfare dependency. Now, I'm not trying to say that all Finns hate Somalis and thus, all black persons, as that is simply not true. I am just saying that in terms of Europe in general, Finland is probably not going to be the easiest country for you to "blend into".

switchblade327
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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by switchblade327 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:41 am

Pursuivant wrote:
Rob A. wrote:My, my what an unusually civil thread....Is this the same Finland Forum I've learned to love so much?? ... What's happened??
Well it was a civilized start. You get the answers you deserve.
And you get to decide what people deserve? This attitude explains a whole lot about the general tone of this forum.

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Re: Black People in Finland

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:17 pm

AldenG wrote:but Helsinki is not an all-white backwater, either.
For that you need to go to Estonia :lol:
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Something wicked this way comes."


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