Black People in Finland

[Upphew]

And by the way: Allo Allo has resigned from his post. Maybe he has seen the light? It really makes my day

You didn't say if you can read Finnish.
I still would like to hear your comments about this writing: http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/maahan ... eista.html

[Tiwaz]

Islam of course. They're offended by everything. See 'ramadan'

Well, Islamic culture is not part of Finnish culture so they can go with their not eating and stuff it where sun does no shine if they expect others to stop doing it..
Finnish culture does not forbid anyone from starving themselves though.

Try making a teacher punish those for 'acts of religion' lol you'll start another racism/anti-religion/special treatment debate the world over... you can't ask a teacher to punish people for leaving in the middle of a lesson even if it is a test. You just force the teachers to make the tests at at time when they don't have to go and pray, whether or not it is convenient for others. Of course you have to make exceptions to the rule for everyone under the law of religion. As much as I would like people to not get special treatment, and if (and more like 'when') I am the teacher I will be able to. But no one else does.

It is simply something we have to fix. In fact, nothing in law requires giving muslims some kind of special privileges. They just have right to practice religion, not special right to have their religion overrule others.

Where in the 'rules' does it state that you cannot walk out of class to go and pray?

It has been a while from days of me being at school, but I recall that nobody was permitted to leave without permission from teacher, and even then only for very valid reason. Such as being about to pee yourself.

Where in the 'rules' does it state that you are not allowed to circumcise your kids?

Finnish culture takes bodily mutilation of children VERY seriously. We frown even at concept of piercing ears of babies, because it is pointless and hurts. Once kids are old enough to ask, they can get their ears pierced.

Where in the 'rules' does it state that you are not allowed to follow through with 'ramadan'?

Actually nowhere. You starving yourself for some guy in the sky is not in any way restricted by Finnish culture. It does not conflict with native culture.
Demanding others not to eat, even if at plain sight of person not eating, is not acceptable.


"Each and every person has a right to behave in whatever way he, or she so chooses as long as they are not interfering with the comfort or well-being of others." (Or something along those lines). One religious nut-job could argue for days that they aren't hurting anyone. One idiot could justify (and all-to-often do) until the end of existence that they keep to themselves when they do these things etc. etc. Thus you have the endless @#$% religious debate, throw in racism and you have a whole 3 course meal.

I'm not defending rapists you dickwad. I agree with everything you say. Most of us do.
It is a well known fact that there are many unfair and basically 'medieval' practises of religion and god-knows what else going on. Why should they be allowed to bring that outdated crap here? I agree with you... it just makes us racists. And apparently that makes us bad people.

Krhm... .Your response stated "Ouch, I don't agree with this in the slightest." under quotation of my text.
Now, might be that English is not my first language, but that to me sounds like "I do not agree with you".

You aren't going to get what you want. You know it. I don't think there isn't a native alive in Finland who hasn't thought about being able to click his or her's fingers and have all the arabs, somalis and romanians etc. sent back to their home countries. No country on earth bans the practise of religion even though it's medieval. No country on earth would dare punish anyone for walking out of class to pray. Or for washing their feet in the sink and spreading water and filth all over the lavatories. No country on earth is going to oppose any of that crap. Because that would make that country 'racist' and that would make that country inhumane. You're asking a lot of people, and no one is going to drop who they are when they come to Finland. As a refugee, I totally agree that one should abandon what made their country trash and caused them to leave in the first place. But an immigrant such as myself, sorry but I am going to wear my Australian flag boardshorts, and speak the way I do and there is nothing you can do about it. As much as I would love to be able to deny the Somalis and Romanians and the Arabs ability to be able to sit back and let the Kela money simply 'roll in'. I can't. You can't. None of the politicians want to. Because one of them will be stabbed walking through the street, and it would go against the laws Finland has already put up to take care of those people. You know this, I know this, we all know this. Things are only going to get worse. We've got about 5.6m people here in Finland now. One day it'll be 6m and then one day it'll be 10m. Things only ever get worse with the introduction of more people to small countries. Eventually the native to immigrant ratio reaches 1:1 because there is no way the natives can reproduce as fast as the immigrants can 'invade' the country. By definition invade is: "To enter (a place, situation, or sphere of activity) in large numbers, esp. with intrusive effect."

I myself believe that what many people scream in media as "racism" increasing, and flinging insults towards PS-part etc, is only beginning. The cup is about to overflow, camel's back is about to break. Longer it takes now, more radical the "correction" move is bound to be. In this sense, I would say that immigrants who refuse to integrate are living on borrowed time. Poor behavior is only fanning the flames of rage for the injustice in natives, and we are still far from situation where immigrants could even imagine being able to stand up against natives of the various European countries.

Longer it takes now to correct the behavioral problem of immigrant population, less pleasant it will be when it eventually is done.

[jahasjahas]

If you want to move somewhere permanently, you have to be able to drop every part of your culture which conflicts with existing native culture.

No, you said they have to "leave their culture". All of it. Now you're saying that they have to drop everything that "conflicts with existing native culture". What does "conflicting" mean, and who decides what's conflicting and what's not? You do realise that there are cultural conflicts within Finnish culture (like "do we teach religion in school?" or "is it okay to be drunk in public?"), and there will always be.

So your argument is that there is no culture? Anthropologists and lots of other scientists just did massive facepalm.
Big news, there ARE cultures even if you cannot define them to the minute detail.

In case you have missed it, Finns all share cultural background which tells what kind of behavior is proper, what is not, how things are done. Even if you decided to go against these rules, you KNOW them.

Of course culture exists. That isn't what I said at all. But you can't say that X is or isn't a part of Finnish culture if there are, in fact, Finns that do or believe X. Haven't you noticed that behaviors that weren't allowed before (wearing short skirts in public) are allowed now, while behaviors that were allowed (hitting your child) aren't? Culture CAN NOT be frozen into a snapshot that you like. Even if we completely close the borders and don't allow anyone to the country, new ideas will still a) develop on their own and b) be imported from elsewhere.

I'm all for cultural relativism in the sense that no culture is objectively better than another. But everyone, you and me, can of course have their opinions on things that different people from different cultures do. We have the right to say that behavior X is not acceptable, or we can even try to make it illegal. But simply saying "you must abandon your culture" does not make sense and won't make anyone change their behavior.

Name countries where Finnish is spoken as large minority language (not one or two villages who have forgotten most of language) beyond Sweden. And they have to speak FINNISH, not some sort of pidgin equivalent.

Again, that's not what you said. Keep moving the goalposts until you're right. (How would it change your argument if, for example, all the Hungarians did speak perfect Finnish? Would immigrants retaining their culture be ok then?)

You should reconsider your position, because your attitude is one which enables what are called "honour murders". Hell, your attitude also accepts baby mutilation known as circumcision! It is, after all, part of their culture so who are we to deny it? -- You are also defending rapists here. In some of cultures, woman not wearing potato sack is whore who is asking to be raped. Thus, by your logic, they are not doing anything wrong because it is part of their culture!

How on earth do you get this from anything I or Kutittaa said? Of course nobody is allowed to break the law or harm others. The fact that something is a "part of the culture" doesn't mean it's okay.

The idea of "no one dares do anything to the muslims" clearly isn't true, either. A recent example: Police bar 3 veiled women from entering France. And the Greens just stated that they're aiming to end non-medical circumcision.

[Rip]

I'm all for cultural relativism in the sense that no culture is objectively better than another.

So cultures where women are sold as property by father to husband are no worse than the Finnish one? "Objectively"" or "Subjectively" is not of much importance to me here, if one does not find the other one worse then either I call it cultural nihilism instead of relativism, or simply demonstrating values that have no space here. If changing behaviour is too hard then such people can go back to their home country instead of trying to change Finland to similar rat hole.

[Pursuivant]

you can't ask a teacher to punish people for leaving in the middle of a lesson even if it is a test

Nobody denies you the right to leave in the middle of a test. It is free choice to do so. However nobody can ask a teacher to admit the person back. Something like the matriculation examinations which take half a day and you are monitored even on toilet breaks might prove interesting. Howevrr, the rules are the same for everybody. Once a man leaves, no man enters.

[Pursuivant]

No country on earth bans the practise of religion even though it's medieval

Ummm.... North Korea and Saudi Arabia pop on my mind... I bet some religions are banned in some countries.

How about ritual cannibalism? You want to come over as dinner??

[Pursuivant]

This whole thread stinks

Indeed, who let you in?

[Karhunkoski]

I'm all for cultural relativism in the sense that no culture is objectively better than another.

So cultures where women are sold as property by father to husband are no worse than the Finnish one? "Objectively"" or "Subjectively" is not of much importance to me here, if one does not find the other one worse then either I call it cultural nihilism instead of relativism, or simply demonstrating values that have no space here. If changing behaviour is too hard then such people can go back to their home country instead of trying to change Finland to similar rat hole.

+1

[Tiwaz]

No, you said they have to "leave their culture". All of it. Now you're saying that they have to drop everything that "conflicts with existing native culture". What does "conflicting" mean, and who decides what's conflicting and what's not? You do realise that there are cultural conflicts within Finnish culture (like "do we teach religion in school?" or "is it okay to be drunk in public?"), and there will always be.

Let's bend some railway track to make it clear to you... Conflict is any situation where same situation has different generally accepted rule for Finnish culture and immigrant culture.

As for "religion at school" or "being drunk in public" are not cultural conflicts. Finns frown upon drunkards out in the open, it however is minor offense culturally. But still condemned. Religion in Finnish society is considered private thing.

Of course culture exists. That isn't what I said at all. But you can't say that X is or isn't a part of Finnish culture if there are, in fact, Finns that do or believe X.

Of course I can! If they are irrelevant, tiny majority, then it is not culture. Culture is not about what some random individual does or does not, but what society as collective considers acceptable.
In case you are missing the point, culture can have norms even if some are not followed by all. Same way someone can break the law without making it disappear. Or do you assume that law does not exist if someone breaks it?

Haven't you noticed that behaviors that weren't allowed before (wearing short skirts in public) are allowed now, while behaviors that were allowed (hitting your child) aren't? Culture CAN NOT be frozen into a snapshot that you like. Even if we completely close the borders and don't allow anyone to the country, new ideas will still a) develop on their own and b) be imported from elsewhere.

Who said culture does not change? But culture changes with FINNS. If Finns want short skirts, then short skirts become accepted. If they do not, they do not. I also notice that you yourself conflicted with your own statement. Even when short skirts were frowned upon, there were short skirts. So by your logic, it cannot be part of Finnish culture if single Finn was not following that norm.

Finns change Finnish culture, foreigners do not have right to demand anything. Also, every change has to fit EXISTING framework. Accepting short skirts did not radically alter Finnish culture, it simply shifted the existing bar of acceptable lenght of skirt slightly. Sudden demand for every woman to wear potato sack would not actually fit existing culture, thus it cannot be part of culture.

I'm all for cultural relativism in the sense that no culture is objectively better than another. But everyone, you and me, can of course have their opinions on things that different people from different cultures do. We have the right to say that behavior X is not acceptable, or we can even try to make it illegal. But simply saying "you must abandon your culture" does not make sense and won't make anyone change their behavior.

Then they should be made to face the music. Either learn to live in Finland as Finns do, or leave. Face unemployment, social shunning. It is not racism, it is you failing to adjust to your surroundings. Leave or adjust.

I see you defend rape then. Because for islamists it is not rape if woman was "asking for it".

Again, that's not what you said. Keep moving the goalposts until you're right. (How would it change your argument if, for example, all the Hungarians did speak perfect Finnish? Would immigrants retaining their culture be ok then?)

Do you call what most 3rd or so forth generation "Finns" to be Finnish? It is not. If it cannot be spoken in Finland without raisin eyebrows, it is not Finnish. There is simple duck test for you.
And immigrants with conflicting cultural norms have to forfeit them regardless of language skills.

Culture maintains cohesion and stability of society.

How on earth do you get this from anything I or Kutittaa said? Of course nobody is allowed to break the law or harm others. The fact that something is a "part of the culture" doesn't mean it's okay.

Of course it does. You see, rape is not rape in islamic culture if woman was asking for it. They do not see themselves breaking the law as their culture defines those women as "public property". Or, to put it more simply, their culture understand certain things as "yes, I want sex". If woman says "yes, I want sex", then it is not rape.
Get the point? Cultures have different views even on something as simple as this.

The idea of "no one dares do anything to the muslims" clearly isn't true, either. A recent example: Police bar 3 veiled women from entering France. And the Greens just stated that they're aiming to end non-medical circumcision.

And how much crap France is getting from it? It is start of reaction I spoke of. Natives have been pushed too far, now comes the backlash.

[QUINCY]

Admin, could you please take off this thread because the subject " Black People in Finland" is so racially inclined and also the contents of debates going on the thread is a disturbing. There are greater problem in Finland and Europe , much more than immigration. Immigrants are not the ones causing the bank and economic meltdown in Europe, they are still the same Europeans. Immigrants are not the cause of Big companies like Nokia falling apart and kicking out workers day after day. There are a whole lot of Immigrants contributing their fair share to the Finnish and European economies and otherwise, so immigrant should not be a subject of ridicle every time in your discussions. A large number of your I.T experts in Finland are immigrants and be quite sure that , immigrants even black people are taking a bold step to speak your language and integrate fully into your cultures and society. If a black person can be in your parliament ( Eduskunta ) today , think and see what the other black population of your country will represent the nation positively in Future. "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a step"? and i think we immigrants are taking this giant steps.

[Rip]

Just noting that the thread was started by a black person...

Immigrants are not the ones causing the bank and economic meltdown in Europe. [...] Immigrants are not the cause of Big companies like Nokia falling apart and kicking out workers day after day.

On the same grounds we should also band public discussion on topics like:
* Greenhouse effect
* Democracy or lack of it in Russia
* US or Finnish soldiers in Afghanistan
* Civil was in Syria
* Proposed merger of municipalities in Finland
* Guggenheim museum
* care of elderly in this country (or others)
*
*

- because none of them caused Nokia to close the Salo factory either!

[jahasjahas]

Immigrant culture = raping, Finnish culture = not raping. Ok, got it.

[Kutittaa]

This is sick. This whole thread stinks of blatant, obvious racist remarks. And if you as much as try to formulate an opinion that goes against that whole "adapt or go back, abandon all of your native culture or die, heil Halla-Aho or die, @#$% Islam or be damned, Finns are such victims of bad immigrants taking over our country, and so on" rhetoric, the thread is closed. Nobody ever on this forum was banned or sanctioned for uttering this vile racist crap.

I really... don't.... care... okay? Seriously...

Finnish culture takes bodily mutilation of children VERY seriously. We frown even at concept of piercing ears of babies, because it is pointless and hurts. Once kids are old enough to ask, they can get their ears pierced.

Interesting, yet I see tons of babies with their ears pierced. I remember thinking the same thing. Who in their right mind would get their child's ears pieced before they're old enough to make the choice for themselves?

Krhm... .Your response stated "Ouch, I don't agree with this in the slightest." under quotation of my text.
Now, might be that English is not my first language, but that to me sounds like "I do not agree with you".

I didn't agree with your context, then you went on a rant about a bunch of unrelated stuff saying that I support rape etc. I don't know how you got that out of what you said.

I myself believe that what many people scream in media as "racism" increasing, and flinging insults towards PS-part etc, is only beginning. The cup is about to overflow, camel's back is about to break. Longer it takes now, more radical the "correction" move is bound to be. In this sense, I would say that immigrants who refuse to integrate are living on borrowed time. Poor behavior is only fanning the flames of rage for the injustice in natives, and we are still far from situation where immigrants could even imagine being able to stand up against natives of the various European countries.

I wish this were true, but unfortunately I think that it's the other way around. With the 'peaceful' but extremely annoying muslim protest in Oulu, I think that if anyone is going to complain it's going to be the Somalis, the Arabs and everyone else. Not the Finns because Finns don't have it in their blood, or their genes to complain. You guys might have slaughtered the Russians and if it comes to a war no doubt you will slaughter once again. But this is different. Finns will, sadly sit down, shut up and probably take it up the ass. Don't take what I am saying as an insult because it is merely my opinion, and that it is all is. Coming from a place that's had 'The cronulla riots' amongst a hundred other violent backlashes against lazy, bigot types etc. I don't see Finland following in Australia's footsteps and standing up to the problem. Though I would love to see push come to shove.

In the last part of your statement it is obvious that immigrants here are severely outnumbered but like I said I don't think Finns will stand up for themselves until it's almost too late. That's normally what everyone does. People, politicians etc. only start fixing things when it's almost too late, or when it is too late. Not much we can do about that. Try changing laws now, no one wants to change the laws. You'll get stabbed if you do. Same goes in Australia. Legalise weed and you'll get stabbed by some religious zealot nubjob walking down the street.

And how much crap France is getting from it? It is start of reaction I spoke of. Natives have been pushed too far, now comes the backlash.

I agree with this. I was in France a few months ago and my goodness... it's totally been taken over. It seems that the French to Immigrant ratio is probably about 1:1 now.. so many black people and their 5 or even 6 children.. people from all walks of the earth. Morocco especially, Africa, India, UAE etc. I also remember one of my very close friends last year saying quite truthfully (but yes quite racially) "I was in France 2 weeks ago and I can tell you that it isn't owned by the French anymore". As I walked around Paris I only saw maybe 1/100th of the 'non-native French' population working any and all sorts of jobs. For the perhaps tens and tens of thousands that I saw they were all walking around, enjoying the time eating, talking to friends etc. Whereas everyone else worked. From anyone's point of view it would have looked as if every immigrant was having a holiday. A permanent holiday.

The problem with France though is it's too easy to get citizenship. Simply walk in, go to a Uni and come out speaking French and you're basically guaranteed citizenship. ergo. then you're EU and you can go wherever you please retrospectively. It needs to change.

One of the first things I thought was, good god. If Finland turns into that...