We currently live in California in the US and are seriously looking into moving to Finland in two years. Our children are currently 14 and 8. Our son (14) has serious medical issues (severe Crohn's, has an ostomy, Aspergers and Tourettes) and our daughter (8) year old has learning delays. We have homeschooled here for many years because the schools here have no place for them and our philosophy is very different. We want better lives and opportunities for our children. Basically I need to know what should I be preparing them for...yes, we're learning Finnish, but what else? Educationally speaking the US and Finland couldn't be more different. I just don't want to be wasting their time. Our son is interested in robotics, and our daughter is interested in animal care. My husband is disabled US military, and we live comfortably on his income, which would continue after our move. I have a BA degree in Psychology but I stay at home caring for and educating our children. When we move there, I'm not sure what job prospects I would have, or they would have as they get older. Any input would be so greatly appreciated!
~Miciah
Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
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betelgeuse
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Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
What category of a residence permit are you going to use?Miciah wrote:When we move there, I'm not sure what job prospects I would have, or they would have as they get older. Any input would be so greatly appreciated!
http://www.migri.fi/frontpage
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Flossy1978
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Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
If your children are high needs, it's going to be more difficult than usual in Finland. The language alone will be extremely difficult. You wouldn't be wanting to move here for the healthcare, would you? I'm sorry, I had to ask.
From your post, there doesn't seem to be any type of residence permit category you'd fit into.
And why Finland?
People do not homeschool here. There is no need to. With a fourteen year old with all those health difficulties, it would put such an enormous strain on him. Imagine being a teenager, now in a foreign country, in school, unable to speak Finnish and not being a part of the culture. Is that fair to load that onto a teenager with what sounds like severe disabilities?
How will the Finnish healthcare system help with your children? Sure, they can speak English, but these will be almost fully grown children, at least your oldest will be. The youngest would be put into a special school. Probably both of them would end up with jobs that given to the disabled. And living off the Finnish Government. The oldest will be put to some trade school, probably. At least the city I lived in had a special school. It only went to the end of grade nine. The children then went on to trade school or to some Government funded job.
Is there not somewhere else in America you could move to, which would be more beneficial? Because no Finnish Government Official is going to give you a permit to live here, I think. You can't just move countries because you are unhappy with your own.
From your post, there doesn't seem to be any type of residence permit category you'd fit into.
And why Finland?
People do not homeschool here. There is no need to. With a fourteen year old with all those health difficulties, it would put such an enormous strain on him. Imagine being a teenager, now in a foreign country, in school, unable to speak Finnish and not being a part of the culture. Is that fair to load that onto a teenager with what sounds like severe disabilities?
How will the Finnish healthcare system help with your children? Sure, they can speak English, but these will be almost fully grown children, at least your oldest will be. The youngest would be put into a special school. Probably both of them would end up with jobs that given to the disabled. And living off the Finnish Government. The oldest will be put to some trade school, probably. At least the city I lived in had a special school. It only went to the end of grade nine. The children then went on to trade school or to some Government funded job.
Is there not somewhere else in America you could move to, which would be more beneficial? Because no Finnish Government Official is going to give you a permit to live here, I think. You can't just move countries because you are unhappy with your own.
Last edited by Flossy1978 on Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
Finns are introvert and don't interact socially as much as others do.
With their disabilities and no/limited Finnish skills, your children will become lifelong outcasts here.
It will definitely not be a "better life" for your children.
With their disabilities and no/limited Finnish skills, your children will become lifelong outcasts here.
It will definitely not be a "better life" for your children.
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
Flossy1978 wrote: People do not homeschool here.
While not in the end not really relevant in this case, (unlike in some other European countries) it is legally possible to home school here, but it is hard do see it serving well an immigrant family even if one could get it (including learning Finnish) somehow practically arranged.
I agree with other posters that don't see a chance of getting a residence permit here, nor do I see what the "better lives and opportunities" here could possibly be for them. BTW 14 years would also be a pretty difficult age to move here even for a child that has no learning problems (educational options for a child around age ~ 16-18 in English would be highly limited while there would be rather little time to learn fluent Finnish before that).
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
There are very very limited resources for children with special needs who do not speak Finnish.
When one of my children needed an assessment from an educational psychologist for his learning difficulties we found NO ONE in Finland able to conduct such an examination in English. So we contacted a doctor in London who flew to Finland to conduct the assessment (we teamed up with two other families in a similar situation and split the cost). Unfortunately the Finnish education authorities were reluctant to accept the report as it was not "Made in Finland". To cut a long story short, my son muddled through the system, failed to pass the (Finnish) High School matriculation but passed a University entrance exam (in English) so he is now studying in Finland (but in English). His only problem was dyslexia/ADHD but not severe. The first reason for moving here was to leave the not-fit-for-purpose French education system and I do not regret that. The second was my husband (who is Finnish).
One of my sons had a friend with learning difficulties in his class and a full-time teaching assistant was provided by the municipality (the child kept running out of school and was very disruptive in the classroom, there were no facilities for him to be schooled elsewhere in English, and his teachers were not trained to deal with the situation). The family left Finland and moved to an English-speaking country after the child finished primary school, presumably no teaching assistant could be provided for him in secondary school.
I know of another family where one of the children has quite severe learning difficulties and is now in a special school. That family arrived in Finland when the boys were very young and put the children into mainstream Finnish schools so they both speak very good Finnish. Even with good Finnish, I know they have been through hell.
Finland is in a recession and there are severe cutbacks (more in store) in all sectors including health, welfare and education. Don't believe everything you read in the media about Finland's wonderful education system. Finland has one of the highest rates of youth unemployment in Europe (and among immigrants unemployment is the norm). There are also large numbers of young people with mental health problems receiving little help or support from the welfare state. Your army pension would not go far here (the cost of living is very high) and would be vulnerable to currency fluctuations. You would still be liable for US tax (FATCA).
I struggle to see how you would achieve your dream of a "better life" here.
When one of my children needed an assessment from an educational psychologist for his learning difficulties we found NO ONE in Finland able to conduct such an examination in English. So we contacted a doctor in London who flew to Finland to conduct the assessment (we teamed up with two other families in a similar situation and split the cost). Unfortunately the Finnish education authorities were reluctant to accept the report as it was not "Made in Finland". To cut a long story short, my son muddled through the system, failed to pass the (Finnish) High School matriculation but passed a University entrance exam (in English) so he is now studying in Finland (but in English). His only problem was dyslexia/ADHD but not severe. The first reason for moving here was to leave the not-fit-for-purpose French education system and I do not regret that. The second was my husband (who is Finnish).
One of my sons had a friend with learning difficulties in his class and a full-time teaching assistant was provided by the municipality (the child kept running out of school and was very disruptive in the classroom, there were no facilities for him to be schooled elsewhere in English, and his teachers were not trained to deal with the situation). The family left Finland and moved to an English-speaking country after the child finished primary school, presumably no teaching assistant could be provided for him in secondary school.
I know of another family where one of the children has quite severe learning difficulties and is now in a special school. That family arrived in Finland when the boys were very young and put the children into mainstream Finnish schools so they both speak very good Finnish. Even with good Finnish, I know they have been through hell.
Finland is in a recession and there are severe cutbacks (more in store) in all sectors including health, welfare and education. Don't believe everything you read in the media about Finland's wonderful education system. Finland has one of the highest rates of youth unemployment in Europe (and among immigrants unemployment is the norm). There are also large numbers of young people with mental health problems receiving little help or support from the welfare state. Your army pension would not go far here (the cost of living is very high) and would be vulnerable to currency fluctuations. You would still be liable for US tax (FATCA).
I struggle to see how you would achieve your dream of a "better life" here.
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betelgeuse
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Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
Which is only an issue if the US tax rate is higher than Finnish since there's a tax treaty in place to avoid double taxation.Rosamunda wrote: You would still be liable for US tax (FATCA).
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
True, but there's still a lot of paperwork involved. I don't think you can avoid that, even if there is no extra tax to pay.
Have the Finnish banks eased their reluctance to open accounts for US nationals?
Have the Finnish banks eased their reluctance to open accounts for US nationals?
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
The biggest question you need to ask yourself is exactly what you are looking for and does a new country provide enough of that to offset the disadvantages you put your family in (not knowing the language and culture, getting a job for you and in the future your children getting a job). So, what are you looking for and is Finland the answer?
Learning Finnish is hard, I cannot emphasize that enough! Your 8yo would most probably learn it, your 14 yo... well, perhaps, especially if he gets lots of Finnish speaking friends that actually speak Finnish to him and not just English, but probably not fast enough for him to manage school in Finnish. You parents? That depends on how determined you are... but you are looking at something like at least 5 years to fluency if you put a lot of effort to it, lots don't and never learn Finnish even after living here for a loooong time.
Getting a job without Finnish skills puts you in two different job markets. The low skill & low pay (and usually at least some basic Finnish is required here) or the very skilled professionals with lots of experience (here you actually might not need to know any Finnish)... and in both one is competing with native Finns who will get the job on language alone if other things are equal.
The culture in Finland is also very different from the US. Introverted Finns, especially when compared to the US, was already mentioned. It's quite normal that neighbors do not know each other, and the social interaction is limited to a nod at best... and that's how people like it. No "Hi! How are you?" to strangers... you will get stares and scare the crap out of people. Religion? Not really... people may be religious, but it's pretty personal... people go to churches when they or their relatives get baptized, married, or die. Generally, no socialization through churches. So if neither of you work, it's going to be hard to get to know people. Politics? You take your left politics and keep on going waaaaaaay left, and you might hit the target. Like all Nordic countries Finland is a social democratic country. Currently the biggest issue here is how to keep our wellfare state up with a long recession and diminishing tax money.
On the good side Finland is a pretty safe country with pretty good health care and education. The health care is nominal cost and the education free up to and including university education. The social safety net also insures that the beggars on the streets are from other countries (some years back I would have said that the only beggars are drunks asking for cigarrettes, but that has changed). Overall the income inequality is pretty low, but that also means that you really don't get rich in Finland, either.
In your shoes I would be looking first at countries that speak English as one of their main languages. Why not for instance Canada? If none of those match then at least a language that is a bit closer to English and easier to learn... basically most of Western Europe. If you are looking into a Nordic wellfare state type of country, then why not Norway, Denmark, or Sweden? Way, way easier languages to learn than Finnish. And if it is PISA scores you are looking at (my guess), then what those show is a good basic education for all Finnish/Swedish speaking children, which doesn't necessarily translate to your children.
Oh... if I may suggest... if you are seriously looking into Finland after all this, then perhaps do something like this as a family first: http://www.concordialanguagevillages.or ... ge-village
Learning Finnish is hard, I cannot emphasize that enough! Your 8yo would most probably learn it, your 14 yo... well, perhaps, especially if he gets lots of Finnish speaking friends that actually speak Finnish to him and not just English, but probably not fast enough for him to manage school in Finnish. You parents? That depends on how determined you are... but you are looking at something like at least 5 years to fluency if you put a lot of effort to it, lots don't and never learn Finnish even after living here for a loooong time.
Getting a job without Finnish skills puts you in two different job markets. The low skill & low pay (and usually at least some basic Finnish is required here) or the very skilled professionals with lots of experience (here you actually might not need to know any Finnish)... and in both one is competing with native Finns who will get the job on language alone if other things are equal.
The culture in Finland is also very different from the US. Introverted Finns, especially when compared to the US, was already mentioned. It's quite normal that neighbors do not know each other, and the social interaction is limited to a nod at best... and that's how people like it. No "Hi! How are you?" to strangers... you will get stares and scare the crap out of people. Religion? Not really... people may be religious, but it's pretty personal... people go to churches when they or their relatives get baptized, married, or die. Generally, no socialization through churches. So if neither of you work, it's going to be hard to get to know people. Politics? You take your left politics and keep on going waaaaaaay left, and you might hit the target. Like all Nordic countries Finland is a social democratic country. Currently the biggest issue here is how to keep our wellfare state up with a long recession and diminishing tax money.
On the good side Finland is a pretty safe country with pretty good health care and education. The health care is nominal cost and the education free up to and including university education. The social safety net also insures that the beggars on the streets are from other countries (some years back I would have said that the only beggars are drunks asking for cigarrettes, but that has changed). Overall the income inequality is pretty low, but that also means that you really don't get rich in Finland, either.
In your shoes I would be looking first at countries that speak English as one of their main languages. Why not for instance Canada? If none of those match then at least a language that is a bit closer to English and easier to learn... basically most of Western Europe. If you are looking into a Nordic wellfare state type of country, then why not Norway, Denmark, or Sweden? Way, way easier languages to learn than Finnish. And if it is PISA scores you are looking at (my guess), then what those show is a good basic education for all Finnish/Swedish speaking children, which doesn't necessarily translate to your children.
Oh... if I may suggest... if you are seriously looking into Finland after all this, then perhaps do something like this as a family first: http://www.concordialanguagevillages.or ... ge-village
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betelgeuse
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Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
I have no knowledge about the current situation on opening bank accounts. However, the need for a full Finnish account has lessened with SEPA and services like Holvi. Granted it's not an ideal situation.Rosamunda wrote:True, but there's still a lot of paperwork involved. I don't think you can avoid that, even if there is no extra tax to pay.
Have the Finnish banks eased their reluctance to open accounts for US nationals?
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
It's hard to get Canada to accept you, especially with special-needs kids, but enough money usually overcomes Canadian obstacles to immigration. That's less true about Finland.
In every other respect Canada is a far easier move than Finland for all the reasons people have explained. In Canada you have a chance, at least a much better chance, of someday becoming just another neighbor. In Finland you'd always be complete and confused outsiders.
I thought I knew this, even having been one of the rare freaks who got highly functional in the language in just a few years, but now I'm shocked at hearing how it is for kids who immigrated as teens and pre-teens. Somehow I had assumed at least the young could fully assimilate. And yet I'm not surprised to learn they don't. Finland has survived by keeping foreigners foreign, which is the exact opposite of everything you've learned as Americans. I think it's hard for most of us Yanks even to grasp what that means.
In every other respect Canada is a far easier move than Finland for all the reasons people have explained. In Canada you have a chance, at least a much better chance, of someday becoming just another neighbor. In Finland you'd always be complete and confused outsiders.
I thought I knew this, even having been one of the rare freaks who got highly functional in the language in just a few years, but now I'm shocked at hearing how it is for kids who immigrated as teens and pre-teens. Somehow I had assumed at least the young could fully assimilate. And yet I'm not surprised to learn they don't. Finland has survived by keeping foreigners foreign, which is the exact opposite of everything you've learned as Americans. I think it's hard for most of us Yanks even to grasp what that means.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
I'm not sure I agree with that (or perhaps I don't understand what you mean). It is no fault of their own that the Finnish language is impossible for a foreigner - the alternative would be a constitutional change to make English an official language and I don't think that will happen soon. Even the Swedish question didn't make it through parliament - the country is not for turning.AldenG wrote: Finland has survived by keeping foreigners foreign
This country already does a pretty good job of providing services in English (and other languages) - probably much better than many other EU countries (eg France, where the govt websites give little or no information in English). This is a huge cost for the taxpayer. Maybe that is what you mean by "keeping foreigners foreign" - the State indulges the linguistic inadequacies of foreigners by providing everything in English?
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
I will tell bluntly what other told way too nicely. No in hell you will be accepted to move in finland. You may come as tourist but thats it. Yes you are American but that doesnt mean !"#¤% in world, you are under rules like everyone else.Miciah wrote:We currently live in California in the US and are seriously looking into moving to Finland in two years. Our children are currently 14 and 8. Our son (14) has serious medical issues (severe Crohn's, has an ostomy, Aspergers and Tourettes) and our daughter (8) year old has learning delays. We have homeschooled here for many years because the schools here have no place for them and our philosophy is very different. We want better lives and opportunities for our children. Basically I need to know what should I be preparing them for...yes, we're learning Finnish, but what else? Educationally speaking the US and Finland couldn't be more different. I just don't want to be wasting their time. Our son is interested in robotics, and our daughter is interested in animal care. My husband is disabled US military, and we live comfortably on his income, which would continue after our move. I have a BA degree in Psychology but I stay at home caring for and educating our children. When we move there, I'm not sure what job prospects I would have, or they would have as they get older. Any input would be so greatly appreciated!
~Miciah
So shortly: NO
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum
Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to my post. I realize now, we should've moved when our children were much younger. Their future options look very limited it seems no matter where we live. We don't qualify for a residence permit so I guess the topic is mute.
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Flossy1978
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Re: Wanting a better life for our children (from US)
It wouldn't have mattered if they were younger.
Surely America can help you? I've seen documentaries from there where the disabled are helped greatly. They live pretty good and meaningful lives if in contact with the right organisations, it seems.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
I don't think your children would have been better off anywhere but in.their home country. It's not like you are running from some horrible third world country.
You probably won't get into most other countries either.
Surely America can help you? I've seen documentaries from there where the disabled are helped greatly. They live pretty good and meaningful lives if in contact with the right organisations, it seems.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence.
I don't think your children would have been better off anywhere but in.their home country. It's not like you are running from some horrible third world country.
You probably won't get into most other countries either.