regarding permanent residence permit!!

Prakas434 · Post by **Prakas434** » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:45 pm

Dear all,

I am bit confused regarding permanent Finnish residence permit (P) and or EU residence permit (P-EU) for third-country nationals with long-term EU resident status. What is the difference between those permits? Is EU residence permit also valid in the UK? I am totally confused. Looking forward to hearing from you!!
Kindest regards,
P

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Pursuivant · Post by **Pursuivant** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:38 am

P-EU is "explained" here
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/ ... 034_en.htm

caster · Post by **caster** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:35 pm

There is no such thing called EU Residence Permit - its a Residence Card and only entitles non-eea family members of union citizens to reside in a particular country where the union citizen lives. UK is not a part of Schengen treaty therefore it is not valid for UK.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:40 pm

caster wrote:There is no such thing called EU Residence Permit

Wrong! http://www.migri.fi/information_elsewhe ... nce_permit
Also, Google "Directive 2003/109/EC". This is different from "EU residence card". They're two different things.

OP, This is a very veeery complicated issue.

P-EU (or, P EY, in Finland) is a result of the EU directive 2003/109/EC. To my knowledge, this is one of the most controversial and complicated immigration-related directive in the EU.
Why? Many countries have negotiated to be not bound by it, like Denmark, UK and Ireland (so I guess this answers your question).

But it gets way more complicated. It's been 11 years since the directive was first finalized, and about 9 years since the implementation deadline has passed. However, even now, there's still debate over the meaning of the directive for each country.
For example: If you hold P-EU (from any EU country), you can go to Sweden and start working immediately, as long as you notify the Swedish authorities within 3 months of your arrival, and even then you only submit a very small application that is usually processed within a few days.

If you try the same in Finland (with P-EU from another EU country), you'll probably be deported. If you move to Finland with a P-EU, you'll have to apply for a regular residence permit. So, essentially, it's the same as having a regular residence permit from another EU country.

But it gets even more complicated. In some countries, for example Netherlands, having a P-EU gives the chance to be exempt from something called "mvv", which is the initial residence permit, but you still need a sponsor to help you with the normal residence permit to work or study.
And many other countries have many other regulations regarding this "EU residence permit". It's a mess!!
Check this report from 2011 on how big of a mess this P-EU thing is. To my knowledge, the situation is still the same since 2011.

So, in short, this P-EU/P-EY or CE, or EC, or KE, or whatever each country decides to call it, is bullsh*t. In best scenarios, it just makes your procedure slightly less complicated in very few EU countries.

caster · Post by **caster** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:17 pm

Here is the concerned directive:

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT - AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 38&from=EN

FIND A WORD PERMIT IN THIS DIRECTIVE OR ANY LEGAL RESEMBLANCE TO THE WORD PERMIT

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:27 pm

caster wrote:Here is the concerned directive:

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT - AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004

Nope. Nooope.
You're referencing 2004/38/EC. We're talking about 2003/109/EC. Read the two numbers, they're different.

You are talking about the right of EU citizens and their families to move within the EU, while OP (and us) are talking about a totally different matter. Two completely different things.

caster · Post by **caster** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:16 pm

adnan wrote:
caster wrote:Here is the concerned directive:

DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT - AND OF THE COUNCIL of 29 April 2004
Nope. Nooope.
You're referencing 2004/38/EC. We're talking about 2003/109/EC. Read the two numbers, they're different.

You are talking about the right of EU citizens and their families to move within the EU, while OP (and us) are talking about a totally different matter. Two completely different things.

Regardless of either directive it is a Residence Card not a permit

http://poliisi.fi/instancedata/prime_pr ... 9d4d2ad288

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:46 pm

caster wrote:Regardless of either directive it is a Residence Card not a permit

http://poliisi.fi/instancedata/prime_pr ... 9d4d2ad288

Still.. nope.
You're talking about the right of the residence for EU citizens (and their relatives). OP is talking about something different!
He's talking about the residence PERMIT given to NON-EU citizens who have resided in an EU country for 5 years. Totally different thing. Totally different application. Here it is
http://www.migri.fi/download/41720_OLE_ ... PEU_en.pdf

Read the first line:

This form is for applying for either a permanent Finnish residence permit (P) or an EU residence permit (P-EU) for third-country nationals with long-term EU resident status.

You are wrong. Accept it and move on.
Your denial and resilience to learning is astonishing. It has surpassed many of the members here known for such qualities. Congratulations!

Here's what's gonna happen next: You're either gonna avoid replying and pretend that this didn't happen, or you'll reply with something completely irrelevant trying to deflect your embarrassment, all instead of saying "Sorry, I was wrong".

caster · Post by **caster** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:54 pm

OP knows what he is talking about and I knows what I am talking about - the question is do you know what you are talking about because I do not.

Prakas434 · Post by **Prakas434** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:29 pm

Thnak-you guys for all your answers. My questions now is what would you do if you were me? I have to apply for either Finnish residence permit (P) or the controversial P-EU? Thank-you for your suggestions! P

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:59 pm

Prakas434 wrote:Thnak-you guys for all your answers. My questions now is what would you do if you were me? I have to apply for either Finnish residence permit (P) or the controversial P-EU? Thank-you for your suggestions! P

Given that the P-EU gives you a bit more rights outside Finland than the P, I'd say go for the P-EU.
It's the same application anyway. The only thing you have to do is tick both boxes in the first section, and that's it. P-EU includes all the P rights and obligations, in addition to the weird mess of "extra rights" I mentioned earlier.

So, yeah. Go for it. There's no down side for having a P-EU

Prakas434 · Post by **Prakas434** » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:24 pm

adnan wrote:
Prakas434 wrote:Thnak-you guys for all your answers. My questions now is what would you do if you were me? I have to apply for either Finnish residence permit (P) or the controversial P-EU? Thank-you for your suggestions! P
Given that the P-EU gives you a bit more rights outside Finland than the P, I'd say go for the P-EU.
It's the same application anyway. The only thing you have to do is tick both boxes in the first section, and that's it. P-EU includes all the P rights and obligations, in addition to the weird mess of "extra rights" I mentioned earlier.

So, yeah. Go for it. There's no down side for having a P-EU

Thankyou! I go for it!

mshamber · Post by **mshamber** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:42 pm

I have a permanent residence and am considering applying for the P-EU but not sure what extra countries that would allow me to work in.

Sweden is one. Has anyone made a list of all the countries that allow P-EU to work there?

I am thinking about the case where I am out of work in Finland and then fly to another member country during the work week.

Beep_Boop · Post by **Beep_Boop** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:45 pm

mshamber wrote:I have a permanent residence and am considering applying for the P-EU but not sure what extra countries that would allow me to work in.

Sweden is one. Has anyone made a list of all the countries that allow P-EU to work there?

- Czechia, Cyprus, Hungary, Latvia, Poland and Sweden. These countries allow P-EU holders to move and start working. However, they state that you must register/apply with the police once you move there. No explanation what "register/apply" means.
- Belgium and Portugal allow you to bypass the market test requirements (read up on it, I don't fee like explaining), but you have to apply for a work residence permit.
- Netherlands allows P-EU to bypass Provisional Residence Permit (mvv) requirement, but you still have to apply for a regular residence permit for work with the market test requirements.
- France and Slovakia allows P-EU to move in some cases if they can demonstrate that they can support themselves. No explanation on what "some cases" mean.

Beyond that, there are no lists. It's just a huge steaming pile of sh*tty mess. P-EU was a wonderful idea 12 years ago.. but that's pretty much it.. an idea, nothing more. That's what happens when an EU regulation says "... and after all of that, each member state can implement all of the above however they want, add more restrictions, remove more rights, etc."

mshamber · Post by **mshamber** » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:20 am

Thanks for the reply. That was good information. In my case I work IT contracts so I need to investigate further into the countries that require a work/residence permit. Typically employers want you to start ASAP and any red tape that would take more then a few weeks would disqualify the applicant. Probably only Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands, and France would support contract rates that would make it worthwhile to work short term contracts there.

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