A cautionary tale

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biscayne
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:43 pm

Re: A cautionary tale

Post by biscayne » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:53 am

This thread seems to be turning into a language thread about the inabilities or refusals of native English speakers to learn FInnish and the interesting observation that it takes them so much longer, or not at all.... I meant this thread simply as a warning to people wanting to move purely for a relationship that it is hard no matter how well you are set up, and I am well set up. My advice was to have a solid plan B.

Regarding language, I arrived "back to Finland" on the 19th of August and started a masters on the 24th. (Compulsory orientation week), travelling up to 7 hours a day from Espoo. So I would suggest that nobody gets fluent in a month......There is a compulsory Finnish class every day from 16-18, then I have a 30min walk to the train or bus, 2.30 hours on bus to Kamppi, 35 mins to Espoo and a 20 minute walk from bus stop to house, so arrive home at 21.30 having left usually before 6am. So I can't take extra Finnish at the moment. But will when the course load lightens a little. The masters also surprised me by requiring me to be in the uni everyday, I have done masters where you are there very little - maybe 5 days a month or so and do assignments yourself, this is more of a taught one. I thought I'd be able to do it, do Finnish classes back in Helsinki in the evenings say 3 nights a week, but it is taking all my time travelling, the timetable was not released when I applied, by the way.

I weighed up was it better to take the offer of the masters, or just enroll in intensive Finnish immediately, and back into nursing (though that failed before), but it seemed like the masters was a good offer so took that. I'm also one of those people who learn languages quite well by osmosis, and I understand grammar well (the people in my current class don't know what a case is, never mind the names of the Finnish cases). I did know Finnish quasi-well, but lets face it, once outside Finland, who bothers with it? I've forgotten a lot, I had another language to learn!

In summary, it's easy to go off on English speakers for not learning Finnish, but I'm only back here a wet weekend! If I was here for 4 years and knew none, then yeah, fair enough!



Re: A cautionary tale

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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:08 am

biscayne wrote:(Compulsory orientation week), travelling up to 7 hours a day from Espoo. So I would suggest that nobody gets fluent in a month......There is a compulsory Finnish class every day from 16-18, then I have a 30min walk to the train or bus, 2.30 hours on bus to Kamppi, 35 mins to Espoo and a 20 minute walk from bus stop to house, so arrive home at 21.30 having left usually before 6am.
Where an earth do you live? Two+ hours on a bus from Espoo to Kamppi? One could get from Turku to Helsinki on a bus in that time.


biscayne
Posts: 630
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by biscayne » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:34 pm

I may have written my travel-day wrong:

Live in a part of Espoo which is 30 minutes by bus (only 2 bus routes) to Kamppi, but, my actual house is 20 minutes walk from the bus stop. So 20+30 = 50 minutes to Kamppi in reality. Sometimes I get a lift to the bus stop, not usually.

From Kamppi either Onnibus (2.30 hours) to University city, or train 1.45 hours, Onnibus usually much cheaper, and sometimes due to my bus connection it's as easy to take or come back with Onnibus, meaning I might get to Helsinki 45 minutes earlier, but would end up waiting in Kamppi for the bus home anyway.

When I get to Uni city, another either 30 minute walk to campus or 10 min bus ride, as of course, I am based in a farther out campus....... Then in the afternoon, 30 min walk to main campus for the compulsory Finnish lessons (grateful, just tired!) then a 30 min walk back to Onnibus stop or 10 min to train if I get the cheap tickets. Then Hki to Espoo, plus the final 20 min walk to house. I usually have to be on the 7.06 train, so up at around 5.15, some days need 6.30 train as have earlier classes, so up,at 4.45. Home at 21.30. If I did not have the Finnish, my day would end at latest 15.00 so would be home by 18.00 approx which is ok, just at the moment the day is horrific. I'm grateful for the Finnish though.

I'm not the only one doing it, as this masters is not offered in Helsinki. We are all knackered. I'm a nurse so used to early hours, but still.......

The funny thing is, a few times my partner collected me in Helsinki just outside Kamppi and it was a 16 minute drive exactly to the door of the house, ok at 21.30, but still. He said that's why he bought it as it is "the country in the city", but that is a bit bogus - you can't park in Helsinki anyway, so you couldn't drive in to work or for shopping/coffee. He works mainly from home other than when he's in the field, so it's heaven to him, hares, deer etc., big forest and Sello, ISO Omena etc a few minutes drive. But for me at the moment it's hell!


biscayne
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by biscayne » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:48 pm

......and I know I should have checked out the situation more, I know. He told me it was a village.

I'm from a coastal village about 15 km from Dublin city, it's basically commuter belt, but very, very pretty and "villagey" .

Now to me, a village means services, my village has a castle, 24 h of parkland, pubs, shops, cafes, boutiques, cobblers, dry cleaners, churches, trainstation with 30 min ride to city centre, restaurants, beaches, marina, 2 supermarkets and, yes, even a Starbucks! I don't have to go into the city (which we call town) or even drive , I can walk into the village.

Here, it seems to mean a few houses in a postal area. So there was a misunderstanding and lack of checking on my part. But it all seemed to be in aid of getting the mystical OKT within the greater Hel Met area.


Jukka Aho
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by Jukka Aho » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:30 am

biscayne wrote:......and I know I should have checked out the situation more, I know. He told me it was a village.

I'm from a coastal village about 15 km from Dublin city, it's basically commuter belt, but very, very pretty and "villagey" .

Now to me, a village means services, my village has a castle, 24 h of parkland, pubs, shops, cafes, boutiques, cobblers, dry cleaners, churches, trainstation with 30 min ride to city centre, restaurants, beaches, marina, 2 supermarkets and, yes, even a Starbucks! I don't have to go into the city (which we call town) or even drive , I can walk into the village.

Here, it seems to mean a few houses in a postal area. So there was a misunderstanding and lack of checking on my part. But it all seemed to be in aid of getting the mystical OKT within the greater Hel Met area.
The Finnish concept and term for a village, kylä, can vary in size and services from a rural hamlet of a couple of houses to kirkonkylä, a "church village", which might in some cases have a population approaching 10,000. Typically less, though.

The smallest "villages" are nothing but a couple of farmhouses located relatively near each other.

A step up from this is a village which has a small school building (for the lower grades only), an itty-bitty convenience store (if you get lucky), a gas station (if you get lucky), and a village club house. Maybe even a chapel of some sort.

Finally, the largest "villages" are in the kirkonkylä category, usually serving as the administrative centers for the entire municipality (and parish), including any other villages belonging to that same municipality (parish) and their population. As the name suggests, they have a church building (belonging to the local parish; municipalities were originally formed from parishes), schools often up to lukio level, a public library, a post office, a public swimming pool, 1-3 supermarkets and some smaller shops, hairdressers/barbers, bank branches, gas stations, some local industry, a health center, cultural activity (choirs, music school) and several densely built districts with detached homes, row houses, apartment buildings, etc.. Maybe even a pub or two, or at least a local restaurant. Up until the latest years, they often also featured a local tax office, a local police station, district court, job center, etc. but due to the countryside graying out and emptying up - and with the modern political tendency of favoring bigger units as a cost-saving measure - those kind of services (and many others) may have now been moved to the nearest "actual" town/city.

Outside the kirkonkylä category of villages (which would probably rather be called small towns in many other places), the Finnish villages tend to be sparsely built clusters of farmhouses with a rather haphazard collection of local services - if any, as the services are to be found in the kirkonkylä, the municipal administrative center. Whatever little there might be (dwellings, school building, clubhouse, gas station) is not built wall-to-wall, either, so you don't get a sense of there being a "village" in the same way even the smallest villages are organized in some other countries.

So apparently you're living in a hamlet type "village" (kylä, sometimes pejoratively called syrjäkylä, with the prefix syrjä- suggesting "remote", "distant", "put aside", "off the beaten path", "boondocks") instead of a kirkonkylä level village.

See here for some more information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipalities_of_Finland

On the note of your original post, I hope you get those things sorted out and your partner is also willing to work things out. Life is too short to spend years of it trapped in what sounds like an unhappy, unsatisfactory situation.
znark


Rick1
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by Rick1 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:24 pm

You made a mistake, go back. Soon November,December comes. The guy does not seem to care that you came back to/for him, you focus too much on one person (also when it was over you still talked like it was the only guy on earth with a pony tail :lol: :lol: .


macora
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by macora » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:15 pm

biscayne wrote:This thread seems to be turning into a language thread about the inabilities or refusals of native English speakers to learn FInnish and the interesting observation that it takes them so much longer, or not at all.... I meant this thread simply as a warning to people wanting to move purely for a relationship that it is hard no matter how well you are set up, and I am well set up. My advice was to have a solid plan B.
...
In summary, it's easy to go off on English speakers for not learning Finnish, but I'm only back here a wet weekend! If I was here for 4 years and knew none, then yeah, fair enough!
It is not about fluency, it is about a certain attitude. Anteeksi että en puhu suomea vielä, may not sound that good, but certainly does not need 4 years to learn. Notice, that there is a difference between "I do not speak Finnish", and "I do not speak Finnish yet", which many Finns DO hear, loud and clear. At least if one actually means it. I personally was, and still am, baffled again and again, how relaxed the Finns are about their language, compared to other nations.

In summary: expecting any other language than the local one(s) 1) often comes across as arrogant, around the globe, and 2) restrains learning the local language. Nothing bizarre, and nothing "only Finland" about it. Actually, not even "only English speaker". Where I am coming from we juggle 4 languages, try to speak any other language than French in the French part of Switzerland. One may learn a couple interesting French words about the Germans, Swiss-Germans, and Nazis. :lol:

Sorry for jumping on your "bizarre, only in Finland" statement. IMO, whether Plan A works is less a matter of this or that peculiarity of a culture, but whether the "fit" of person and culture is a good one. Finns are definitely special. But frankly, so are Germans, so are Swiss, etc. Whether you made a mistake, or had a highly interesting learning experience, is not mine to tell. I suggest to prioritize keeping the "tuition fees" of the experience low, though, with as cool a head as possible. Does not sound like the dream place to sell part of a house, that is somewhat run down.
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cors187
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by cors187 » Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:42 am

you should buy a very cheap but winter reliable car and drive to the bus stop from home.
You should also check again and find another travel route using public transport from kampii to uni
http://www.reittiopas.fi/en/?searchform ... in=&to_in=


Rick1
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by Rick1 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:00 pm

Yes, that will solve all her problems in a minute.


biscayne
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by biscayne » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:40 pm

Oh lord....... this thread, which I started really, truly, honestly just as a word of warning to anyone moving over to the gorgeous blonde, or as in my case, the pony-tailed sailor slash engineer, seems to have turned into a language and travel thread.

I was trying to convey that you really need to have a plan B and a bit of cash. There have been so many posts about someone who met someone in country A, fell madly in love and wanted to move to Finland to said blonde or metal fan or whatever. Without having any savings, a profession or education which would give them a chance of finding work and just expecting it all to go nicely and then wondering how they ended up with no money, no job, no love and back to Mammy and Daddy to their old bedroom at age 30 having put their all into trying to make it work in Finland.....I wanted to just give my experience of having moved back here to really try with someone, having a good education and profession, being reasonably good at learning languages (certainly by native English speaker standards anyway who are notoriously bad at learning languages for whatever reason), having a solid plan B and enough cash to get by for a while plus a place to go back to. The point I was making was that it still can turn out to be a dodgy move, so be very, very careful. Especially if you are over 40 like me. That was what I wanted to say. I was not looking for sympathy etc., yeah this thing I am in is slowly turning into a bit of a farce, but that is not the problem of the forum members. I really wanted to just warn people.

Regarding the travel - well, the suggestion about the car is something I thought about, but did the maths. It would cost more on petrol to drive to the Uni on a daily basis than use Onnibus or the train, as the train has had good bargains lately. The other major problem is parking, there just is nowhere to park unless you fork over huge amounts of cash. Many masters degree programmes I am familiar with require only minimal attendance at the actual University, average is 3 to 5 days per month. In such a case, I probably would drive to save hassle. However, this programme is badly organised, we are there almost everyday. For example yesterday, I traveled 6 hours in total for a 120 minute lecture........ and that is constantly happening, and attendance is mandatory and signed for, if you miss lectures you have to make them up in other ways. So the organisation of the programme is not helping. (the schedule was not given when I applied).

Regarding Reittoppas, I use it all the time. I live in Henttaa, a weird place as by car it can be as little as 16 minutes to Kamppi when there is no traffic. But, my house is 10 min walk from the Henttaa bustop. Only the 121k and the 16 go from there, and very infrequently. The main buses go from Suurpelto which is close to Henttaa and starting to get majorly developed with heaps of blocks of flats all over. We are in the "real" Henttaa, practically in a forest with just OKTs all over. Some mornings I can use the 121k depending upon what time I need to be in Kamppi. Other times I walk 20 minutes to Suurpelto (fun at 6am) as the only suitable bus would be the 107. At nights, the 121k does not run, so mainly I get the 107 and walk from Suurpelto to the house. There are possibilities to use the 121 (not the 121k) get off at Itaporti and take the 16 to Henttaa, but again, the times don't always work out, as I am back and forth at different times almost everyday.

So, again, based on the fact that I have looked into all the options, 10 or 20 minutes walk to whichever bus, 35 min to Kamppi, 2.5 hours to Uni with Onnibus or 1.45 approx with train. Once there, I walk to my campus which is a 25 minute walk from either where Onnibus leaves you off, or from the train. I could use the bus and I do when it is raining, but I walk to save money and get in exercise. I cannot get student bus prices as I am over 30 and do not get the Kela assistance as I came here to study. Once over 30 you only get it if you also get Kela, I checked into this and I am not eligible. Then, evenings, it is the same thing.

In hindsight it may have been better to just concentrate on Finnish, but, a free masters is quite a gift so it seemed like it would be a good idea and keep me occupied. Also, once the first year is over, the programme is minimal and you spend most of the time doing your thesis.

Regarding Finnish. I fully understand Finnish is language of Finland. My full intention is to learn it properly, I did actually have a fair knowledge of it. I picked up good Slovene in 1 year, more or less fluent in 2. I expect say, 3 for Finnish based on that comparison. I simply commented that based on my experiences abroad, I found it, let's say interesting, that in a social situation I was totally ignored. I found it almost funny. I know Finns don't like it if you sort of push yourself forward, so I just went with the flow.

So, again, it was not really a travel or language thing. A warning post if you like. But hopefully this clears that up.

FYI - things are comical here. I don't do the laundry right, nor do I stack the dishwasher properly, I once put the baking paper back in the wrong cupboard, I left the milk out on the counter instead of putting it directly back in the fridge (I was not finished with it). I never thought so much could be wrong with me. I simply cannot fathom how I've managed to survive thus far.....................


cors187
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Location: land of the thunder hammers

Re: A cautionary tale

Post by cors187 » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:00 pm

From your home in hentaa you would drive your car to the faster bus system on the lansivayla, park it
heres a nice cheap setup, you can take your dogs to the beach in summer if you have any or use to run your little business.
http://www.nettiauto.com/en/citroen/berlingo

You go into the HSL place, its near and underneath the helsinki train station but in the food courts entry area. You buy a 100 euro monthly travel pass using your Finnish ID number.
Atleast for winter is a viable solution


RevealingtheTruth
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by RevealingtheTruth » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:41 am

tummansininen wrote:
niceguy40 wrote:long distance relationships never work out, even when you move to where they are.
Mine is working just fine thanks. Been here six years. Not a cakewalk, but the relationship is not a problem.


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Cory
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by Cory » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:37 pm

biscayne wrote:FYI - things are comical here. I don't do the laundry right, nor do I stack the dishwasher properly, I once put the baking paper back in the wrong cupboard, I left the milk out on the counter instead of putting it directly back in the fridge (I was not finished with it). I never thought so much could be wrong with me. I simply cannot fathom how I've managed to survive thus far.....................
:lol: Life with an engineer, eh? Guy sounds like he's very sad with his own life. That's his problem. Be very PROUD that you're not complaining about things but getting on with your own life. :thumbsup: I divorced after 11 years in Finland and with a 6 yr old son with my Finnish ex. He was OK with me moving back to Canada with our son after our divorce but it was my choice to stay. I was fortunate because I had a good job and didn't need to worry about money, and thankfully so because I grieved the end of the marriage (even though it was an amicable divorce) and the loss of a 2-parent family for my son, for a while. I was sad but needed to emotionally go through that. I'm living proof that life in this country is possible after divorce. It need not be the end of the world and in fact starting again was a good thing!! I remarried after a couple of years and I have chosen to be happy although life here is not always easy. :)

Again, good on you!!
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Jukka Aho
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:02 am

biscayne wrote:Oh lord....... this thread, which I started really, truly, honestly just as a word of warning to anyone moving over to the gorgeous blonde, or as in my case, the pony-tailed sailor slash engineer, seems to have turned into a language and travel thread.
This is the Internet. There's no such thing as controlling the threads you start. "You post something, we discuss its implications." *wry smile*
biscayne wrote:I live in Henttaa, a weird place
Oh, there. That's... no village. More like an omakotitaloalue; a residential area packed with single-family detached homes. Just far enough into that forest to create the illusion you're not necessarily near any major urban development.

I wonder how the westward extension of the metro (esp. the Matinkylä station, which should be open for business in 2016) will affect your situation. You'll probably have to take a bus to Iso Omena and the metro to Kamppi from there. All those direct bus connections to Kamppi will be converted into feeder lines that will only take you to the nearest metro station, not any farther.
znark


betelgeuse
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Re: A cautionary tale

Post by betelgeuse » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:31 am

Jukka Aho wrote: I wonder how the westward extension of the metro (esp. the Matinkylä station, which should be open for business in 2016) will affect your situation. You'll probably have to take a bus to Iso Omena and the metro to Kamppi from there. All those direct bus connections to Kamppi will be converted into feeder lines that will only take you to the nearest metro station, not any farther.
They could also run to Niittykumpu but yes it's probably going to be a little slower to Kamppi in the future.


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