Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

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prosto_super
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 am

Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by prosto_super » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:56 am

Hello!
I am applying for a non-qualified job in Finland. My employer is very interested to get me for this position, as he has a strong stuff turnover.
Unfortunately, I've got negative partial decision from Employment and Economic development office. As far as I concerned, this problem is linked to my employer, because this position is suitable for a wide range of Finnish workers (especially unemployed).
I made a call to Migration Service to ask about filing a complaint and I was informed that this appeal supposed to be from my emloyer.
Is there a possibility for employer to handle this case with Employment office providing some more documents (my portfolio) without going to Administrative court? How much time does it take to challenge negative decision in court?

I'd be grateful for your help!



Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

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rinso
Posts: 3702
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by rinso » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:24 am

prosto_super wrote:Hello!
I am applying for a non-qualified job in Finland. My employer is very interested to get me for this position, as he has a strong stuff turnover.
Unfortunately, I've got negative partial decision from Employment and Economic development office. As far as I concerned, this problem is linked to my employer, because this position is suitable for a wide range of Finnish workers (especially unemployed).
I made a call to Migration Service to ask about filing a complaint and I was informed that this appeal supposed to be from my emloyer.
Is there a possibility for employer to handle this case with Employment office providing some more documents (my portfolio) without going to Administrative court? How much time does it take to challenge negative decision in court?

I'd be grateful for your help!
Since it's a non-qualified job the chances that you'll get a positive decision are very small. An appeal will be a waste of time (many months) and money.
Based on this story I think getting a RP is a mission impossible. Try an other reason to get a RP (for instance try to get a study place or marry a Finn).


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wolf80
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:43 pm
Location: Helsinki

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by wolf80 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:40 am

You have all the facts together, so why do you even think an appeal will make a difference?
- The job does not need any qualifications, and there are many unemployed people in Finland that could do the job.
- Your employer has a high staff turnover, so there is a good chance you will also be laid off again soon.

Of course your employer would rather have you, a foreigner who needs the job in order to keep his residence permit, than a local complaining about the bad working conditions. He knows you will make much less trouble. But with so many unemployed (and getting unemployment benefits) the country has to see that the available jobs go to them instead of bringing new people to Finland.

As rinso said, you will have to find another way to get a residence permit if you want to stay, an appeal seems rather futile in this case.


prosto_super
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by prosto_super » Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:37 pm

thank you for your responses, rinso and wolf80.

I have a master's degree in engineering . My employer is willing to promote me after some time of successful working.

Employer is tired of constantly changing workers. He has to spend lot's of resources for training them. It's a food production company and you need to work in minus degree temperature, not many people can manage this and they just leave.

wolf80 wrote: Of course your employer would rather have you, a foreigner who needs the job in order to keep his residence permit, than a local complaining about the bad working conditions. He knows you will make much less trouble.
My employer is quite ignorant of such matters, he even didn't know that foreigners have to get permit for working. He just needs healthy guys who will stay more then for a week. I was the one who suggested to hire me because of the reason you mentioned.


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wolf80
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Location: Helsinki

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by wolf80 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:05 pm

prosto_super wrote: My employer is quite ignorant of such matters, he even didn't know that foreigners have to get permit for working. He just needs healthy guys who will stay more then for a week. I was the one who suggested to hire me because of the reason you mentioned.
Sorry for making wrong assumptions on this, I apologize! Your case doesn't fit the 99% of others here.

I think you have the problem that as long as the company can find people in Finland (or the EU) willing to do the job they have to take them, even if they only stay for a short while. Times are hard, and people are willing to try out things, even if they don't work out. To be honest, working in the cold all day also wouldn't be a job for me!

The case might be different if you had any experience of working in cold conditions like that. Then the company could ask for somebody with experience working in the cold in the job requirements, which will be much harder to find for them, and that might be enough to justify importing a skilled worker.

Btw, which country are you from?


prosto_super
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by prosto_super » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:07 pm

wolf80 wrote: Sorry for making wrong assumptions on this, I apologize! Your case doesn't fit the 99% of others here.

I think you have the problem that as long as the company can find people in Finland (or the EU) willing to do the job they have to take them, even if they only stay for a short while. Times are hard, and people are willing to try out things, even if they don't work out. To be honest, working in the cold all day also wouldn't be a job for me!

The case might be different if you had any experience of working in cold conditions like that. Then the company could ask for somebody with experience working in the cold in the job requirements, which will be much harder to find for them, and that might be enough to justify importing a skilled worker.

Btw, which country are you from?
I understand your sarcasm :D I'm just trying to get as much information as possible and I don't give up. I want to fight for this chance as much as I could.
I thought maybe someone here can help with suggesting how to present myself from better side through documents.

I'd like to repeat my question about appeal. Can my employer change the decision in Employment Office without going to the court?

I'm from Russia and it's really hard times for us too.


Hämeen Hitain
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:18 am

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by Hämeen Hitain » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:49 am

Presenting you is irrelevant, if the job does not require a specialist that is impossible to find in the whole EU. As you said "non-qualified job "


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wolf80
Posts: 415
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Location: Helsinki

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by wolf80 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:19 pm

Hämeen Hitain wrote:Presenting you is irrelevant, if the job does not require a specialist that is impossible to find in the whole EU. As you said "non-qualified job "
Exactly that. And that's why I pointed out that as long as the company can find people in the EU to do the job you have no chance. If you would have relevant experience that is necessary for the job, and that is impossible to find here, that would be sth different. There was absolutely no sarcasm in my post. But if you don't want to take advice from people who are trying to help, your own problem.

On a side-note, I can't imagine that there are no people in Finland who are able and willing to do the job!


leisl
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Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by leisl » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:35 pm

If he had needed a native Russian-speaker with this master's degree in engineering, working in cold temperatures and experienced with food production, then of course he could show why he needed you. Too little, too late, though. If he did that now I am sure he would be investigated. And that's sort of fraud. Which could end very badly.

I think you need to give up on this and accept defeat. The crux is this. You were never entitled to work here at unskilled jobs. And you still aren't. You don't have "an opportunity" here with this job. Because you don't have the basic right to work here. The "can't find an EU to fill this position" thing is a loophole. :(

Work on your suave ladykiller skills and marry a Finn. Or knock one up and get a residence permit based on the kid. Or build your Finnish language skills and land some actual bilingual engineering job that a Finn can't do.


leisl
Posts: 422
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Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by leisl » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:46 pm

prosto_super wrote:Can my employer change the decision in Employment Office without going to the court?
No. You said you received a negative decision on a residence permit. Regardless of whether the Employment Office changed their mind, you would have to appeal the residence permit negative decision. You will have received information on how to appeal. Do not bother unless you can demonstrate that the law was not applied correctly. Or if they made the decision based on having the wrong information from you.

By the way if you think you can get the Employment Office to change anything in their systems, you are dreaming. They are notoriously terrible. They will tell you a thousand times something has been fixed. It never will be. You will discover again and again that it still has the old information in place. Appealing their decisions takes more than half a year. If you get that decision changed you would then have to appeal the residence permit anyway. And remember. They deal with facts only. Fact: The job doesn't require an engineer and can be performed by a Finn. That will not change if you ask them to reassess things. They don't care if the employer can't keep staff. They will point to their Finnish clients and send them for the job before they will send you.


betelgeuse
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Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:41 pm

prosto_super wrote:thank you for your responses, rinso and wolf80.

I have a master's degree in engineering . My employer is willing to promote me after some time of successful working.

Employer is tired of constantly changing workers. He has to spend lot's of resources for training them. It's a food production company and you need to work in minus degree temperature, not many people can manage this and they just leave.
With a master's degree you should look for jobs that require the degree. Applications as a specialist don't involve a labor market evaluation.

http://www.migri.fi/working_in_finland/ ... specialist


prosto_super
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by prosto_super » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:22 pm

to wolf80
I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound rude. I just thought you were joking.

I am actually really greatful to you guys for all your answers. This forum is a great help for me.
I'm not dumb I understand that it's kind of hopeless in my case. But why don't give it a try? I've already lost my money, so I want to take all steps and don't regret that I didn't try enough.

to leisl
but if Employment Office will change it's decision what am I got to do? my 30 days term for appeal will be gone. Will I be able to appeal?


Hämeen Hitain
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:18 am

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by Hämeen Hitain » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:49 pm

As the job offered to you is a "non-qualified job ", the possibility that Employment Office will change the decision is zero


leisl
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by leisl » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:34 am

prosto_super wrote:to leisl
but if Employment Office will change it's decision what am I got to do? my 30 days term for appeal will be gone. Will I be able to appeal?
The Employment Office will never change that decision. We've been over that. Facts, remember? The fact is a Finn can do the job.
The residence permit decision was based on the information given to them internally from the Employment Office. Which says: a Finn can do that job. The law was applied correctly. You got the "correct" decision.

An appeal is for if the law was not applied correctly OR the information used for the decision process has changed or was not correct.

Neither of the decisions would be changed on appeal in my opinion. I am not a lawyer. But look at this thread. Everyone seems to agree. In your case you have nothing to go on. I didn't think appeals were free. Why would you waste money on this. Start attending Finnish courses. Or go to every language cafe you can find. And apply for every qualified job that you can.


mshouban
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:55 pm

Re: Negative Partial Decision for residence permit

Post by mshouban » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:21 am

Go for appeal and give the strong reasons that why this decision is not right.
and when you applied for RP. My friend got positive decision two months ago for non qualified job


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