Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on marriag

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sunflower26
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:08 am

Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on marriag

Post by sunflower26 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:19 am

Hi guys

I have got my finnish citizenship now for more than 5years. I intend to get married with a EU citizen that is not living at the moment in Finland.

First question is: for registering the marriage (and also to be able to change my passport) is it enough the marriage certificate officially translated into english? I guess this paper should be taken to maistraatti to be registered, right?

Second question: how fast will my husband get the finnish ID? I mean first the henkilötunnus and then apply for ID? What are the steps for that? I saw there are some forms to be filled from migri's page. With these forms where should we go?

Any advices in order to proceed faster would be greatly appreciated :)



Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on marriag

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leisl
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by leisl » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:50 pm

Apostilled Certificate in English or Swedish. If that country is not a signatory to the Hague convention then it should be notarized or similar. But what country are you getting married in. With Nordic countries you don't need the Apostille.

Changing your name with Maistraatti is very simple, you just say you want to change your surname. Fill out a form. Hand over the marriage certificate showing why. Clerk types in computer. Done. Remember it is not compulsory. Maybe half of Finnish women do not change their names. Sometimes husbands take the wife's name. Then you go get the passport changed with the police. The info is in the computer. Hand over photos and cash etc. Come back in a week to collect it. If you or husband has a weird surname that Finns can't pronounce, both of you should consider taking the easier surname. It will help with job prospects.

Husband gets a five year residence permit probably. He can then apply for the Finnish ID card. His will be brown. And say xxx for citizenship status. For many people it is easier and faster to do a registration as an EU citizen with the police (not "family member of Finn" application). When they ask for means of support, you point out that you are married. They will then use your income as his means of support. (If you are working full time.)

If you do "family member of Finn" there is no income requirement. But it seems to be slower. People in here say it takes ages. Migri say it takes up to 9 months. Times on the Migri website are often from 2014. Or else not very useful. Who knows what they are now. YMMV, I don't work for the police. You could just turn up at the police and ask them yourself. Which one is faster.

He must ask to apply for the henkilötunnus at the same time as he applies for his permit or registration. It's not automatic apparently. No idea why. But that is what Migri says.


betelgeuse
Posts: 2782
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:35 pm

sunflower26 wrote: I have got my finnish citizenship now for more than 5years. I intend to get married with a EU citizen that is not living at the moment in Finland.

First question is: for registering the marriage (and also to be able to change my passport) is it enough the marriage certificate officially translated into english? I guess this paper should be taken to maistraatti to be registered, right?
leisl wrote:Apostilled Certificate in English or Swedish. If that country is not a signatory to the Hague convention then it should be notarized or similar. But what country are you getting married in. With Nordic countries you don't need the Apostille.
Apostille is correct. However, for non Hague convention countries grand legalization needs to be used.

http://www.maistraatti.fi/en/Services/p ... formation/
sunflower26 wrote: Second question: how fast will my husband get the finnish ID? I mean first the henkilötunnus and then apply for ID? What are the steps for that? I saw there are some forms to be filled from migri's page. With these forms where should we go?
leisl wrote: Husband gets a five year residence permit probably. He can then apply for the Finnish ID card. His will be brown. And say xxx for citizenship status. For many people it is easier and faster to do a registration as an EU citizen with the police (not "family member of Finn" application). When they ask for means of support, you point out that you are married. They will then use your income as his means of support. (If you are working full time.)
First family permits are one year.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 0301#L4P53

What's your source that the EU registration works with family member as means of support? The legislation excludes these cases for EU registration.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P153

I do agree it's easiest to try for the EU registration and work out any proof of funds.

leisl wrote: He must ask to apply for the henkilötunnus at the same time as he applies for his permit or registration. It's not automatic apparently. No idea why. But that is what Migri says.
must --> can

If you don't apply through the police, you can still do it through Maistraatti or tax office.


sunflower26
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:08 am

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by sunflower26 » Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:16 pm

leisl wrote:Apostilled Certificate in English or Swedish. If that country is not a signatory to the Hague convention then it should be notarized or similar. But what country are you getting married in. With Nordic countries you don't need the Apostille.
We are getting married in Romania, so I guess a translated apostilled copy should be needed.
leisl wrote:Husband gets a five year residence permit probably. He can then apply for the Finnish ID card. His will be brown. And say xxx for citizenship status. For many people it is easier and faster to do a registration as an EU citizen with the police (not "family member of Finn" application). When they ask for means of support, you point out that you are married. They will then use your income as his means of support. (If you are working full time.)
So, how fast would he get henkilötunnus? Is it immediate when we go to police? Or also this takes time?

When can he apply for kela card? After the residence permit is given?

I went to police and asked, I received a bunch of papers to fill in. My worries are as I'm unemployed and he's a freelancer, that it would be little more difficult. I have some savings in my Nordea account but I don't know if it's good enough. So this residence without showing income would be 'easier' for us.
leisl wrote: If you do "family member of Finn" there is no income requirement. But it seems to be slower. People in here say it takes ages. Migri say it takes up to 9 months. Times on the Migri website are often from 2014. Or else not very useful. Who knows what they are now. YMMV, I don't work for the police. You could just turn up at the police and ask them yourself. Which one is faster.
True, I've seen this 9 months. However, the average processing time it's told to be 102 days... so little longer than 3 months... of course !"#¤% can happen

http://www.migri.fi/services/processing ... sing_times
leisl wrote:He must ask to apply for the henkilötunnus at the same time as he applies for his permit or registration. It's not automatic apparently. No idea why. But that is what Migri says.
Applying for henkilötunnus is it done at police?

Now my question is, police said that for 3 months an EU citizen can live in Finland no problem, after that he should register at police. I hope that getting the henkilötunnus is not taking forever, as in this time he should open a bank account, register for some finnish courses, which I guess it's not possible without that one.

Damn I hate I don't remember how it went for me many years ago when I myself moved here :shock:


leisl
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:26 pm

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by leisl » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:14 pm

betelgeuse wrote:What's your source that the EU registration works with family member as means of support? The legislation excludes these cases for EU registration.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P153
My partner and I did it ourselves (2009). They asked my income, looked at payslips, grunted. Registration approved.

I am interpreting this clause in reverse to you I believe. I would take this as: in exceptional circumstances this section can be used in the case that chapter four (residency permit) cannot - but not: if chapter four could be used then you are excluded from this section. I am not a lawyer but I just asked another Finn this evening. They concurred with how I understood it. But maybe we are both reading it wrong. Anyway my partner and I used this path for registration. And the registration was approved. In any case, there is this at the end of §158a:
Pohjoismaan kansalaisen perheenjäsenellä on oleskeluoikeus, vaikka hänen toimeentulonsa ei olisi turvattu.
I don't know if the police follow that, or the police don't know what they are doing, or they just didn't care. I would still try to do it this way.
betelgeuse wrote:
leisl wrote: He must ask to apply for the henkilötunnus at the same time as he applies for his permit or registration. It's not automatic apparently. No idea why. But that is what Migri says.
must --> can

If you don't apply through the police, you can still do it through Maistraatti or tax office.
Yes sorry, I meant, must ask for it (if you want it at that time) because it doesn't happen automatically.


betelgeuse
Posts: 2782
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by betelgeuse » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:53 am

leisl wrote:
betelgeuse wrote:What's your source that the EU registration works with family member as means of support? The legislation excludes these cases for EU registration.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P153
My partner and I did it ourselves (2009). They asked my income, looked at payslips, grunted. Registration approved.

I wonder if there's any ECJ rulings on what sufficient financial resources means in this context. I guess the police might as well be pretty relaxed since the end result is positive regardless of the approach chosen. This would only rule partners of Finnish citizens on social security out of EU registration when they themselves don't have sufficient funds.
leisl wrote: I am interpreting this clause in reverse to you I believe. I would take this as: in exceptional circumstances this section can be used in the case that chapter four (residency permit) cannot - but not: if chapter four could be used then you are excluded from this section. I am not a lawyer but I just asked another Finn this evening. They concurred with how I understood it. But maybe we are both reading it wrong. Anyway my partner and I used this path for registration. And the registration was approved. In any case, there is this at the end of §158a:
Pohjoismaan kansalaisen perheenjäsenellä on oleskeluoikeus, vaikka hänen toimeentulonsa ei olisi turvattu.
I don't know if the police follow that, or the police don't know what they are doing, or they just didn't care. I would still try to do it this way.
Here's on the relation between chapters four and ten from the government proposal:
Ehdotetussa uudessa pykälässä säädettäisiin oleskeluluvan myöntämisestä sellaisille Suomessa asuvan ja oleskelunsa rekisteröineen unionin kansalaisen perheenjäsenille, joihin ei voida soveltaa 10 luvun säännöksiä. Kyse on perheenjäsenistä, joihin vapaan liikkuvuuden direktiiviä ei voida soveltaa lainkaan tai jotka eivät täytä direktiivissä säädettyjä edellytyksiä. Kyse on siis perheenjäsenestä, jonka oleskeluoikeutta ei voida rekisteröidä tai hänelle ei voida myöntää oleskelukorttia. Säännös koskee myös perheenjäsenen alaikäistä lasta.

Pykälää sovellettaisiin esimerkiksi silloin, kun unionin kansalainen avioituu Suomessa. Tällöin kyse ei ole unionin sisäisestä liikkuvuudesta, joten 10 lukua ei voitaisi soveltaa. Pykälää voitaisiin soveltaa myös siinä tapauksessa, että unionin kansalaisen perheenjäsenen oleskelulle ei olisi 10 luvussa edellytettäviä riittäviä varoja. Oleskelulupa voitaisiin tällöin myöntää, jos katsottaisiin olevan olemassa 39 §:n 1 momentissa säädettyjä perusteita poiketa toimeentulovaatimuksesta. Näitä ovat poikkeuksellisen painava syy tai lapsen etu.
https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/Halli ... 7+2009.pdf

In addition section 153 a makes it quite clear that chapter 10 is default.
153 a § (23.3.2007/360)

Poikkeus luvun soveltamisalaan

Unionin kansalaiselle, jonka oleskeluoikeutta ei voida rekisteröidä tai vahvistaa tämän luvun säännösten perusteella, voidaan poikkeuksellisesti myöntää oleskelulupa 4 luvun perusteella.
It's not explicit but I think Nordic citizens in the Aliens Act are defined as:
Islannin, Norjan, Ruotsin ja Tanskan kansalaisilla on oikeus saapua maahan ilman passia suoraan näistä valtioista ja oleskella Suomessa rekisteröimättä oleskeluoikeuttaan.
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P157
sunflower26 wrote: When can he apply for kela card? After the residence permit is given?
Whenever in the country. I am not sure if this could be done with the personal identity code but it will for sure make things easier.


Upphew
Posts: 10134
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Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by Upphew » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:22 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
leisl wrote:
betelgeuse wrote:What's your source that the EU registration works with family member as means of support? The legislation excludes these cases for EU registration.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P153
My partner and I did it ourselves (2009). They asked my income, looked at payslips, grunted. Registration approved.

I wonder if there's any ECJ rulings on what sufficient financial resources means in this context. I guess the police might as well be pretty relaxed since the end result is positive regardless of the approach chosen. This would only rule partners of Finnish citizens on social security out of EU registration when they themselves don't have sufficient funds.
Iirc there is a ruling that made it illegal to put any concrete number on financial resources. Which is dumb imho.
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


betelgeuse
Posts: 2782
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:24 am

Re: Finnish ID for foreigners/ permit residence based on mar

Post by betelgeuse » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:12 pm

Upphew wrote: Iirc there is a ruling that made it illegal to put any concrete number on financial resources. Which is dumb imho.
I wasn't really referring to concrete number but to which types of income is accepted (in this case the pledge of a spouse to support). If it was possible to put concrete number, I could easily see some governments abusing it to restrict immigration.


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