Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

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slow nick
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Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:10 pm

Hey all. Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong section but there doesn't seem to be anywhere appropriate for it :o

I am a Finn who has lived in the UK my whole life. My mother was British and she brought me here when I was very young. I have not been to Finland for a very long time and I have no intention of moving back. I am 27 years old.

I applied for an exemption from military service due to personal circumstances which was rejected and my call-up is next year. I am settled in the UK with a successful career and a home etc and I cannot afford to simply leave the country for the best part of a year. I have applied for British citizenship but it takes months and I don't know if I will have a decision before January.

Can someone tell me the consequences of simply not turning up to service? I am aware that they will want to arrest me and give me some free time in prison, but how likely is it they will seek my extradition from the UK?

I have no plans to visit Finland at the moment, although I would like to in the future. My father lives there and I have never met him, although I did manage to track him down online 2 years ago and get in contact with him. If I wait until after I turn 30, will I have any problems entering the country? I don't want to be arrested at the airport. I suppose I could fly into Sweden and then drive across the border if necessary.

Thanks,
Nick



Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

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Rip
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Rip » Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:30 pm

I can't see Finnish state seeking your deportation. You either don't have or soon won't have a Finnish passport. Is that a problem (are you supposed to have one if you live in UK as a non-citizen?). Also I don't know how long this issue would be a problem on your next visit here (even after you'd be to old to be called to serve?)

(really, why didn't you get UK citizenship in time?)


slow nick
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:26 pm

I got a new Finnish passport at the beginning of this year but it only lasts until the end of the year in which I turn 28. For me that is next year. Apparently this is in Finnish passport law, as I have not done the military service.

Living in the UK without any passport is not a problem as such, it just means that I won't be able to leave the country. I have been informed by the Finnish authorities that if I did wish to return to Finland during this period to complete the military service, they would issue me an emergency passport and even pay for the travel. The call-up papers I received also have what appear to be train tickets I can use to get to the barracks :D

I never bothered with British citizenship until now because I've never really needed it. Thanks to the European Union there is almost no advantage (aside from being able to work in sensitive government jobs, and vote in the general election) and it's an expensive and complicated process (quite ironic as the prices have almost doubled since I first started looking at it). I did have an entitlement to be registered as a British citizen until the age of 18 but my mother never bothered for whatever reasons.

I'm only doing it now because of the impending referendum and it does seem stupid that I am not entitled to hold a passport of the country I have always regarded as my home.


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Beep_Boop
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Beep_Boop » Sat Apr 23, 2016 8:54 pm

I highly doubt that Finland would ask for your extradition. However, in the presumably unlikely scenario where they do, the procedure will probably take long enough for you to have your British citizenship and renounce your Finnish one.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


slow nick
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:08 pm

Beep_Boop wrote:the procedure will probably take long enough for you to have your British citizenship and renounce your Finnish one.
Thanks. I understand that as soon as I have another citizenship, I can apply for the exemption right?

Another question: I did see on the Finnish embassy website, it mentions that Finns with another citizenship will lose their Finnish citizenship at age 22 if they do not have a strong connection to Finland. Does this continue to be the case after age 22? I don't meet any of the requirements for a strong connection. Will I lose my Finnish citizenship immediately when I become British?


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Pursuivant
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:29 am

Just don't go to Finland, or get arrested - drunk tank is bad enough, military police drunk tank is medieval - if your mom was British you shouldn't get any bollocks from the home orifice... TBH you're too old they don't want you in, its more giving you grief that everyone else hd to go in and you was freeloading
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


slow nick
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:15 am

Pursuivant wrote:TBH you're too old they don't want you in, its more giving you grief that everyone else hd to go in and you was freeloading
I thought as much. I understand most Finns do their service at 18, after they complete school. I will be almost 10 years older than most of them, probably nowhere near as fit, and I don't speak a word of Finnish.

Not sure what you mean about freeloading :?


Rosamunda
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Rosamunda » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:09 pm

If your mother was British when you were born, how can you not be British?

My own kids had UK citizenship from birth (I am a Brit) even though they were not born in the UK (or Finland). In fact, their Finnish citizenship was refused the first time we applied (their father is a Finn). The eldest is about your age.

:?


betelgeuse
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:32 pm

slow nick wrote: Another question: I did see on the Finnish embassy website, it mentions that Finns with another citizenship will lose their Finnish citizenship at age 22 if they do not have a strong connection to Finland. Does this continue to be the case after age 22? I don't meet any of the requirements for a strong connection.
This is about dual citizens and it only happens at 22.
slow nick wrote: Will I lose my Finnish citizenship immediately when I become British?
You will not.
slow nick wrote: Thanks. I understand that as soon as I have another citizenship, I can apply for the exemption right?
There's no exemption because of dual citizenship. You can renounce your Finnish citizenship which means you are only a British citizen.
slow nick wrote: I'm only doing it now because of the impending referendum and it does seem stupid that I am not entitled to hold a passport of the country I have always regarded as my home.
You are not in a position to complain about not getting the benefits of Finnish citizenship when you don't want to do the duties that come with it.


Rip
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Rip » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:59 pm

betelgeuse wrote: There's no exemption because of dual citizenship.
They have indicated (+ some earlier threads on this board) that you get exemption pretty much as a routine, if you A) have another citizenship AND B) your connection to this country has otherwise been as slim as OP has had. The website seems to have gone thorough restructuring but I don't thin kthere be any change in law or policy.

OP has problems because he has no other citizenship and therefore can bit poorly claim to have practically no connection to this state.


Rip
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Rip » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:00 pm

Rosamunda wrote:In fact, their Finnish citizenship was refused the first time we applied (their father is a Finn).
May I ask if you were married when they were born (trying understand the legal logic)?


betelgeuse
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:15 pm

Rip wrote:
betelgeuse wrote: There's no exemption because of dual citizenship.
They have indicated (+ some earlier threads on this board) that you get exemption pretty much as a routine, if you A) have another citizenship AND B) your connection to this country has otherwise been as slim as OP has had. The website seems to have gone thorough restructuring but I don't thin kthere be any change in law or policy.

OP has problems because he has no other citizenship and therefore can bit poorly claim to have practically no connection to this state.
I stand corrected. The relevant subsection can be found here:

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 1438#L7P76

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 071438.pdf

"A Finnish citizen is exempted upon application from military service during peacetime if he is a citizen of another country and resident abroad and can prove that his de facto ties to his family, studies, income or other person matters are located outside Finland."


slow nick
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:29 pm

betelgeuse wrote:You are not in a position to complain about not getting the benefits of Finnish citizenship when you don't want to do the duties that come with it.
Just to be clear, I was talking about the UK being the country I have always regarded as my home, yet not being able to have a British passport. I'm on my third Finnish passport now.
betelgeuse wrote:There's no exemption because of dual citizenship.
From the Finnish embassy website:

A person with dual citizenship may apply for exemption from Finnish military service in peacetime by submitting a free-form letter addressed to the Military Province Headquarters in the military province where the person’s municipality of residence is located. To the letter must be appended:
- a copy of the person’s British passport authenticated by the Finnish Embassy
- in addition, the letter must mention that the person in question lives permanently outside of Finland and that his actual ties concerning family, studies, livelihood or other personal affairs are not in Finland.
The conscript has no obligation to attend the call-up or the military service, if he also has the nationality of another state and his domicile has, for the last seven years, been somewhere else than Finland. Exemption does not have to be applied for separately, if this seven year requirement is fulfilled. An exempted conscript with multiple nationalities can, however, be ordered to undertake military service, if he moves to Finland before the end of the year in which he turns 30.

Rosamunda wrote:If your mother was British when you were born, how can you not be British?

My own kids had UK citizenship from birth (I am a Brit) even though they were not born in the UK (or Finland). In fact, their Finnish citizenship was refused the first time we applied (their father is a Finn). The eldest is about your age.

:?
My mother herself was a British citizen by descent, as she was born in Finland to a British father. She spent most of her childhood and young adult life in the UK.

British citizenship only passes down one generation to children born outside the UK. There are provisions in the British Nationality Act 1981 which allow for the registration of minors as British citizens. Annoyingly, I met the requirements for section 3(2) and section 3(5) which are entitlements, not discretionary decisions, however it was never done. I am now about to naturalise as an adult British citizen instead.


Rosamunda
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by Rosamunda » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:29 pm

slow nick wrote: My mother herself was a British citizen by descent, as she was born in Finland to a British father. She spent most of her childhood and young adult life in the UK.

British citizenship only passes down one generation to children born outside the UK. There are provisions in the British Nationality Act 1981 which allow for the registration of minors as British citizens. Annoyingly, I met the requirements for section 3(2) and section 3(5) which are entitlements, not discretionary decisions, however it was never done. I am now about to naturalise as an adult British citizen instead.
You're right - my own kids (born in France to British mother) will not pass their citizenship onto their kids either. It's a shame your mum never put you on her GB passport when it was still possible to do so. Getting you out of Finland on a Finnish passport, can't have been easy though. I assume she was travelling with a Finnish passport? The reason I - eventually - married my kids' father is that in the event of my unforeseen demise (living in France) my husband would have had extreme difficulty getting his own kids back to Finland. So much for Europe!


slow nick
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Re: Consequences of 'dodging' military service?

Post by slow nick » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:14 pm

Rosamunda wrote:You're right - my own kids (born in France to British mother) will not pass their citizenship onto their kids either.
They will if their own children are born in the UK. As I mentioned above there are also provisions in the British Nationality Act which allow for the registration of minors who are born abroad to British citizens by descent. Under section 3(2), the child does not even need to have lived in the UK.
Rosamunda wrote:It's a shame your mum never put you on her GB passport when it was still possible to do so.
The circumstances surrounding my arrival in the UK are unclear. I can't remember how I got here (I was only 2 years old) but I do remember when I applied for my previous passport in 2006, I hadn't had one for quite a while. My mother may well have brought me here on her British passport, as Finland did not join the EU until 1995.


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