Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

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rlmedinburgh
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Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by rlmedinburgh » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:24 pm

Hello,

I have been offered a position in Finland, but I want to be 100% sure that I understand the process correctly.

I am a non-EU (US) in a registered partnership (since 2011) with an EU (Greek) citizen. I have exercised my rights in three countries in the US up to now, and they have stamped my passport or given me a certificate to state that I have the right to live and work in the EU country while I wait on the residence card (countries can take up to six months to process the residence card). Under EU law, the registered partner/spouse of an EU citizen should be treated as an EU citizen, but the Helsinki police told me that I CANNOT work while I am waiting on the residence card. I told him that Residence Permit is for "permission" to work, but a residence card simply states your rights under EU law.

My potential employer are receiving contradictory information from the Helsinki police. Can someone share their experience? (Please remember that Finns and partners would typically not be in this situation, as EU citizens cannot use EU law in their own country unless they have lived in outside their country in another EU country for an extended period.

Thanks so much for your thoughts! I am so worried that I will have to turn down a job that I worked very hard for, but moving to Finland from the UK, as you can imagine, is very expensive, and I don't want to uproot my family and not be able to begin the job due to any complications at the Helsinki police department.

Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

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betelgeuse
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by betelgeuse » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:49 pm

rlmedinburgh wrote:I am a non-EU (US) in a registered partnership (since 2011) with an EU (Greek) citizen. I have exercised my rights in three countries in the US up to now, and they have stamped my passport or given me a certificate to state that I have the right to live and work in the EU country while I wait on the residence card (countries can take up to six months to process the residence card).


I assume you mean EU instead of US in the second sentence.

rlmedinburgh wrote:Under EU law, the registered partner/spouse of an EU citizen should be treated as an EU citizen, but the Helsinki police told me that I CANNOT work while I am waiting on the residence card. I told him that Residence Permit is for "permission" to work, but a residence card simply states your rights under EU law.


You are correct. The only thing without the residence card is that proving your right to work becomes trickier. Since your employer must check your right to work, you would have to provide them with documents about your relationship, passport of your spouse and the EU registration certificate or population register extract that shows he/she has moved to Finland with you.

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L10P164


rlmedinburgh
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by rlmedinburgh » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:39 pm

Thank you for your response! I have no problem supplying all of that information, but the human resources department wants something in writing from the police that I am allowed to work. They received a positive response, but I received a negative response (cannot work until RECEIPT of residence card) from the same office. My partner and I wrote to the police, but we are waiting on the response. If they do not respond, I have to decide if the move is worth the risk. :(


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Pursuivant
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:59 pm

Well, the thing is they need"proof" and that "proof" is that card. Otherwise they are liable for hiring an illegal alien. Any tomdickanharry can come up with any kinds of papers. The police document is the one "believed". Same thing with getting an ID number or a bank account... You won't be "in the computer" before you provide "proof". And "proof" is the police given certificate tomdickharrys papers are legit... Finland is not UK where you prove your address with a gas bill... you need to be "in the computer"...
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


adam7
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by adam7 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:36 am

Firstly, your spouse has the right to stay longer than 3 months provided that there is an income or funds for living. This also applies to a non-EU spouse. (Ulkomaalaislaki 158a §)

Your spouse has the duty to register within 3 months of arrival and the right to receive a residence certificate. You again need a residence card, as a non-EU spouse, but this is only administrative measures as Section 158a establishes the right.

Aliens Act 164 § actually notes that if you have the right to residence, according to the same chapter chapter as 158a of the act, you have an unlimited right to work. So if the police has stated that you need to register/get a card, in order to work, this is an incorrect reading of the law of the land. Police often have deficient knowledge of the law.

So note the differnece of registering and getting the certificate and card, to the right that the act establishes. This is not really a matter of proof as claimed, on the level of rghts. Proof is only on the admin side of matter.

The police is not to write you any kind of certificate on this., since their duty is only to issue the certificate or card, not speculate on your rights. If your employer needs a statement, they need to ask a lawyer to write the same as I noted above :roll:

On this iśua actually the Finnish Immigration Service seems to give imprecise/incorrect advice, see point number 3 on
http://www.migri.fi/services/faq/reside ... u_citizens

The law doesn't require the card as a precondition for employment and probably nobody has taken this issue to administrative court to rectify this incorrect view.
Last edited by adam7 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.


adam7
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by adam7 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:34 am

Pursuivant wrote:Well, the thing is they need"proof" and that "proof" is that card. Otherwise they are liable for hiring an illegal alien. Any tomdickanharry can come up with any kinds of papers. The police document is the one "believed". Same thing with getting an ID number or a bank account... You won't be "in the computer" before you provide "proof". And "proof" is the police given certificate tomdickharrys papers are legit... Finland is not UK where you prove your address with a gas bill... you need to be "in the computer"...

Sorry, but you are totally out of your depth on this issue & shouldn't opine of matters you do not have a clou about, regardless of the number of posts posted on this forum.

Don't read this as an insult, but just as a statement of fact.


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Pursuivant
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by Pursuivant » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:42 am

OK, inspector Clousiot. Please then provide the timeline of exactly what will be happening. That this person will have an ID number, bank account, tax slip and started his job. How long does it take to make a complaint to the administrative court... he'll have his job in 2020 or so? :lol

Regular hardworking people need to start working and get paid - and to achieve that they will need to provide a mutual satisfaction of requirements. You want, they want, provide what they want and you will get what you want. That is how it works with bureaucracies anywhere. It might not be "right" but rather than butting your head into a brick wall, to avoid stress, frustration and to save time, one generally provides the required. Aside from that there is the question of getting paid which means getting the job. You take a letter from some pompous lawyer to an employer? Yeah, right. Hire? Some guy the first thing is with a lawyer? Yeah... I will see that day with 100.000 unemployeds queuing up for the job you hire a potential liability like that.

Don't read this as an insult, but don't comment on reality before you have first hand factual experiences of it.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


rlmedinburgh
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by rlmedinburgh » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:23 am

Thank you, Adam7, for the helpful information. This confirms, in a more official manner, the information that I have found. I am really shocked that Finland does not provide a Certificate of Application or a stamp that confirms the non-EU the right to live and work freely. This is the first EU country that I have heard about who refuses to do so. I wonder if the new EU resolution regarding EU-wide acceptance of public documents will change this for those countries creating hurdles.


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rinso
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by rinso » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:51 am

I wonder if the new EU resolution regarding EU-wide acceptance of public documents will change this for those countries creating hurdles.

No, people stick to the bureaucracy. Complains make them more inflexible.
There is no incentive for them to be lenient about things they don't understand. So they stick to the old ways.


betelgeuse
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:52 am

rlmedinburgh wrote:I am really shocked that Finland does not provide a Certificate of Application or a stamp that confirms the non-EU the right to live and work freely. This is the first EU country that I have heard about who refuses to do so.


A Certificate of Application does not confirm anything else besides that you have applied. Everyone has the legal right to apply so it would not be useful to an employer. Finland does issue Certificates of Application (as required by the EU directive).

"Unionin kansalaisen perheenjäsenen oleskelukortti on myönnettävä viimeistään kuuden kuukauden kuluttua hakemuksen jättämisestä. Hakemuksen jättämisestä on annettava välittömästi todistus."

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 1#L10P161b

rlmedinburgh wrote:I wonder if the new EU resolution regarding EU-wide acceptance of public documents will change this for those countries creating hurdles.


I don't see how this matters. What document from another EU country would you be using?

adam7 wrote:On this iśua actually the Finnish Immigration Service seems to give imprecise/incorrect advice, see point number 3 on
http://www.migri.fi/services/faq/reside ... u_citizens

The law doesn't require the card as a precondition for employment and probably nobody has taken this issue to administrative court to rectify this incorrect view.


I read the answer as not saying anything about when you yet don't have the card.

rlmedinburgh: As an option you can apply for a residence permit before you arrive in the country. If you are a specialist, a decision can be made in a matter of days.


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Pursuivant
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:41 pm

On the police pages theres "average" times for dealing with applications. Like an "EU-registration" is three days turnover. Then there are "directive times" which to me reads as they're taking the piss, as it says "6 months" you can't supply the card in a shorter time, but "exactly" at 6 months, or longer... They read the law as its written...
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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Pursuivant
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by Pursuivant » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:43 pm

Betelgeuse - there is also that "specialist" category, but here we get into that "confusing the drones" category.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


rlmedinburgh
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by rlmedinburgh » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:50 pm

Thank you to those who offered helpful information. And for those who guess and spew idiotic statements, go have another drink.

I received confirmation, in writing, from the Finnish authorities that non-EU spouses/registered partners of EU citizens do the have the right to work and live freely as soon as the EU citizen registers with the police (as long as the EU citizen qualifies (sufficient income or a job). This is EU law, and this law has been strengthened by the recent resolution by the European Commission on the free circulation of public documents.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/civil/judic ... dex_en.htm

I hope that this helps others to avoid hassles in the future. Do not rely on phone calls with the EU registration units at the police stations; ask for it in writing.


Upphew
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Re: Residence Card for non-EU spouse of EU citizen

Post by Upphew » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:33 pm

adam7 wrote:
Pursuivant wrote:Well, the thing is they need"proof" and that "proof" is that card. Otherwise they are liable for hiring an illegal alien. Any tomdickanharry can come up with any kinds of papers. The police document is the one "believed". Same thing with getting an ID number or a bank account... You won't be "in the computer" before you provide "proof". And "proof" is the police given certificate tomdickharrys papers are legit... Finland is not UK where you prove your address with a gas bill... you need to be "in the computer"...

Sorry, but you are totally out of your depth on this issue & shouldn't opine of matters you do not have a clou about, regardless of the number of posts posted on this forum.

Don't read this as an insult, but just as a statement of fact.

Imho P's logic sounds very much like someone hiring would follow.
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Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


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