length/cost of permanent resident card

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mshamber
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length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by mshamber » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:28 am

I recently applied and received my permanent resident card and it has a five year validity.

I am a bit annoyed I am going to have to pay the fee for the card + another 20 euros for pictures every five years + wait in the queues. (About 100 euros total)

I did some research to try to find how the time period is established.

I found this page that says the period should be 10 years after the initial five year period. It also says the card should be free or cost no more then the identity card for a national.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 8-20110616
Article 20
Permanent residence card for family members who are not nationals of a Member State
1. Member States shall issue family members who are not nationals of a Member State entitled to permanent residence with a permanent residence card within six months of the submission of the application. The permanent residence card shall be renewable automatically every 10 years.
2. The application for a permanent residence card shall be submitted before the residence card expires. Failure to comply with the requirement to apply for a permanent residence card may render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.
3. Interruption in residence not exceeding two consecutive years shall not affect the validity of the permanent residence card.


Am I missing something? Or is Finland not properly implementing the directive? I will submit the question to migr.fi through their website though it probably takes some weeks to get a response



length/cost of permanent resident card

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Beep_Boop
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Beep_Boop » Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:35 pm

*sigh* It's Michael again with more fun technicalities. I guess you're just helping build the stereotype we have here of U.S. people :lol:

Anyway, you have two points:
1- Cost: The cost is similar to what a Finn pays for ID. Done.
2- Duration: All similar EU directives give Member States a huge leeway when it comes to 'public security'. In the case of residence card, security features that assures authorized usage of the card (a matter of public safety/security) need to be renewed if they become obsolete. Finland has decided that those security features become obsolete after 5 years. This includes security printing, holograms, the age of the holder's photo, crypto keys in the chip in the card, etc. Done.

To expand on point #2: Passport in Finland used to be issued for 10 years. Because of Finland decisions on security, the validity of passport issued to Finns are 5 years these days. Essentially, Finland applies those public security measures on Finns and on foreigners equally. Same goes for ID cards issued for Finns and foreigners.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


mshamber
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by mshamber » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:30 pm

>> It's Michael again with more fun technicalities. I guess you're just helping build the stereotype we have here of U.S. people

I have never heard of that one. I have heard they are all fat and like to eat hamburgers.

Thanks for the info related to the validity time period. The cost is different though. It costs 54 euro (50 with e-service) for a Finnish Identity card: https://www.poliisi.fi/licences/service ... rizes_2016. While it costs 78 euro for the permanent residence card: http://www.migri.fi/our_services/processing_fees. So in this case they are not in compliance with EU law. I would argue that validity time is not relevant to security. More then 2/3 of EU countries have a 10 year validity on their passports.

I'm still waiting if Finland will bring me to court over the gap in my passport validity. I made a not guilty claim. There is a chance they won't prosecute me. If they do I plan to argue a technicality. :D. The law states that you have to be without a valid passport on purpose. The prosecutor claimed that I am responsible to remember so if I don't then I have done it on purpose. I believe "Gross negligence" would apply to someone forgetting. The technicality is that the paragraph of law mentions explicitly twice that gross negligence is not an excuse for related offences but it does not mention it for not having the valid passport. If it was not explicitly added like in the other sentences then therefore it was not meant to be added and does not apply.

Anyway, if they want to make me a criminal for forgetting to renew my passport they are going to have to work for it. I am interested to see how typical American legal defences work in Finnish court.
Last edited by mshamber on Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.


betelgeuse
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Aug 15, 2016 2:40 pm

mshamber wrote: Permanent residence card for family members who are not nationals of a Member State

1. Member States shall issue family members who are not nationals of a Member State entitled to permanent residence with a permanent residence card within six months of the submission of the application. The permanent residence card shall be renewable automatically every 10 years.
mshamber wrote: Am I missing something? Or is Finland not properly implementing the directive? I will submit the question to migr.fi through their website though it probably takes some weeks to get a response
Are you a family member of a Member State national who has used the right of free movement? If not, article 20 does not apply to you. I do find it interesting that the Finnish government proposal implementing the directive is silent on how the ten years were implemented to the Aliens Act.

https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/Halli ... 5+2006.pdf

To me it seems Aliens Act 162 is silent on how long the card is valid for family members. Understanding this matter in more detail would require more research which I don't currently have the time for.


mshamber
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by mshamber » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:17 pm

Yes, I did read that now that it applies only to those nationals who have exercised freedom of movement. It does not apply to me since my spouse is a national of Finland.

For those that do exercise freedom of movement, Finland is not compliant with the law in the costs of the permanent residence card. Since they charge 50 euro for a Finnish identity card they cannot charge 78 for the permanent residence card to this particular group.

I'm looking into these cases since I am interested in whether Finland complies with law in it's treatment of non-EEA nationals. The current legislative efforts to block out the latest group of migrants is affecting all non EEA nationals in a negative way. For example, if we left to the USA for a couple of years, I would then need to reapply for permanent residence to return but the new income requirement for a family of 4 would block us. My spouse's salary would not cover it which would block my application for residence even though I have the higher income. The only way to return to Europe is to exercise the free movement treaty to another member state which would not block based on income?


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Beep_Boop
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Beep_Boop » Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:21 pm

mshamber wrote:I would argue that validity time is not relevant to security.
You're welcome to argue, but you'd be wrong. Validity time not only is relevant, but very important for security for the reasons I explained above.
This includes security printing, holograms, the age of the holder's photo, crypto keys in the chip in the card, etc.
Particularly, the age of the holder's photo and the crypto keys in the chip. Those must be kept up to date and refreshed, respectively.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


betelgeuse
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:13 pm

mshamber wrote:For those that do exercise freedom of movement, Finland is not compliant with the law in the costs of the permanent residence card. Since they charge 50 euro for a Finnish identity card they cannot charge 78 for the permanent residence card to this particular group.
It does indeed seem problematic under article 25 of the directive. The commission is probably interested. I remember seeing a document about a similar investigation for UK but no quick Google foo returned it again.
mshamber wrote:For example, if we left to the USA for a couple of years, I would then need to reapply for permanent residence to return but the new income requirement for a family of 4 would block us. My spouse's salary would not cover it which would block my application for residence even though I have the higher income. The only way to return to Europe is to exercise the free movement treaty to another member state which would not block based on income?
The latest change does not apply to family members of Finnish citizens.
Beep_Boop wrote:
mshamber wrote:I would argue that validity time is not relevant to security.
You're welcome to argue, but you'd be wrong. Validity time not only is relevant, but very important for security for the reasons I explained above.
If there was leeway in the implementation, I would think there was language towards that in the directive.


betelgeuse
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:40 pm

mshamber wrote: I'm still waiting if Finland will bring me to court over the gap in my passport validity. I made a not guilty claim. There is a chance they won't prosecute me.
There's a fair chance of the issue just expiring due to statute of limitations.
mshamber wrote: If they do I plan to argue a technicality. :D. The law states that you have to be without a valid passport on purpose. The prosecutor claimed that I am responsible to remember so if I don't then I have done it on purpose. I believe "Gross negligence" would apply to someone forgetting. The technicality is that the paragraph of law mentions explicitly twice that gross negligence is not an excuse for related offences but it does not mention it for not having the valid passport. If it was not explicitly added like in the other sentences then therefore it was not meant to be added and does not apply.
Off topic for this thread but I'll bite a little. I have a hard time parsing in my head what you are saying here but you do want to read the unofficial translation of Section 185 subsection 1 point 1 again.
1) deliberately resides in the country without the required travel document, visa or residence permit, or through negligence fails to comply with the obligation to register his or her residence or apply for a residence card or permanent residence card;
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 040301.pdf

You have a problem with both residing without a travel document and failing to apply for a residence card. I don't think forgetting will fly when the bar is at negligence.


PJG
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by PJG » Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:07 pm

mshamber wrote:I recently applied and received my permanent resident card and it has a five year validity.

I am a bit annoyed I am going to have to pay the fee for the card + another 20 euros for pictures every five years + wait in the queues. (About 100 euros total)

I did some research to try to find how the time period is established.

I found this page that says the period should be 10 years after the initial five year period. It also says the card should be free or cost no more then the identity card for a national.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re ... dex_en.htm

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/ ... 8-20110616
Article 20
Permanent residence card for family members who are not nationals of a Member State
1. Member States shall issue family members who are not nationals of a Member State entitled to permanent residence with a permanent residence card within six months of the submission of the application. The permanent residence card shall be renewable automatically every 10 years.
2. The application for a permanent residence card shall be submitted before the residence card expires. Failure to comply with the requirement to apply for a permanent residence card may render the person concerned liable to proportionate and non-discriminatory sanctions.
3. Interruption in residence not exceeding two consecutive years shall not affect the validity of the permanent residence card.


Am I missing something? Or is Finland not properly implementing the directive? I will submit the question to migr.fi through their website though it probably takes some weeks to get a response
It seems to me that you're completely overcomplicating your situation, worrying about things you shouldn't, distracting yourself from the things you should do. The time you've wasted because you didn't keep your passport in date and now, researching the law as you believe it applies to the pricing structure for a card you're required to hold, amounting to an additional cost of less than 10 euro per annum based on your argument, should be put to better use doing something productive and beneficial for you and your family.

In your previous 'run in' with Finnish officialdom you've wasted hours of your life, considered civil disobedience and jailtime instead of paying a fine for breaking the law of the land you've chosen to make your home, then sought to rile against the person who in all honesty gave you the best advice going (just pay the fine, FFS) all the while deciding you've some greater case to make.

Look, make your own choices in life, by all means. Just remember, you only have one life. Wasting it arguing with people is a shameful way to spend it when you could be bettering yourself by learning valued skills, improving your income by updating training/certification and so on, or best of all, spending a little more time with your wife and kids. Even if you don't want to do any of those things, it's probably best if you just accepted that your first problems (related to the expired passport) were ENTIRELY of your own making, your own fault and quite frankly, inexcusable. You just forgot your passport had expired? I don't believe you. You're clearly intelligent and perfectly capable of getting into the detail when it comes to passing the buck, yet you'd expect people to believe you just 'forgot' your passport expiry date was looming/passed? No, not plausible.

The complaint now is minor and has a whiff of sour grapes about it. It's truly a first world problem, if even that. 50 vs 78 euro? Pffft.

So stop picking fights with the Finns. Pay the 20 quid a year for the 5 year card and get on with your life.


mshamber
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by mshamber » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:29 am

>>Off topic for this thread but I'll bite a little. I have a hard time parsing in my head what you are saying here but you do want to read the unofficial translation of Section 185 subsection 1 point 1 again.
>> 1) deliberately resides in the country without the required travel document, visa or residence permit, or through negligence fails to comply with the obligation to register his or her residence or apply for a >>residence card or permanent residence card;
>>http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 040301.pdf

I have seen different translations. When I put the official Finnish text through the google translator it does not mention negligence at all for that.

Official Finnish from 2004 aliens act, http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/2 ... 01#L11P174
1) tahallaan oleskelee maassa ilman vaadittavaa matkustusasiakirjaa, viisumia tai oleskelulupaa taikka laiminlyö velvollisuutensa rekisteröidä oleskelunsa taikka hakea oleskelulupakortti, oleskelukortti tai pysyvä oleskelukortti,

And the google translation:
1) intentionally staying in the country without the required travel documents, visa or residence permit, or fails to register their stay or apply for a residence card, residence card or permanent residence card,

If they do take me to court I will ask them to provide an official translation. At their expense.

The other argument I plan to make is that they do not inform aliens that not having valid travel documents is a crime. I had never heard of the aliens act prior to this. Am I supposed to read that entire document? What if my native language is not English or Finnish? It is not a crime in the USA for a green card holder to have an expired passport. I believe migri should include responsibilities and inform on potential crimes in the permanent residence paperwork that is signed by the applicant.

>> It does indeed seem problematic under article 25 of the directive. The commission is probably interested. I remember seeing a document about a similar investigation for UK but no quick Google foo returned it again.

I would pursue it if it affected me but it doesn't since my spouse is a Finn and I have not exercised Freedom of Movement. After the Interior Ministry ignores my complaint, I would not be able to file in the European court of Human Rights unless I am some way damaged. If Finland is not following European law in their treatment of Non EEA citizens someone should challenge them. And you brits may be joining the Americans in this category in a few years.


Upphew
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Upphew » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:40 pm

mshamber wrote:The other argument I plan to make is that they do not inform aliens that not having valid travel documents is a crime. I had never heard of the aliens act prior to this. Am I supposed to read that entire document? What if my native language is not English or Finnish? It is not a crime in the USA for a green card holder to have an expired passport. I believe migri should include responsibilities and inform on potential crimes in the permanent residence paperwork that is signed by the applicant.
Everywhere seems to have the same tip that your passport should be valid for the duration of your stay plus three months. travel.state.gov states that: "CRIMINAL PENALTIES: While you are traveling in Finland, you are subject to its laws even if you are a U.S. citizen. Foreign laws and legal systems can be vastly different than our own."
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


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Beep_Boop
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Beep_Boop » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:34 pm

I feel like I'm watching one of those videos with "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" or one of those "sovereign citizen" things.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


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Pursuivant
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:03 pm

The other argument I plan to make is that they do not inform aliens that not having valid travel documents is a crime.
They don't tell you anything being a crime as far as I can tell. How about you go fornicate with a goose on the lawn, and state as your defence "nobody told be boinking a goose is illegal?!?" *

* Actually it is legal.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


mshamber
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by mshamber » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:45 pm

I am starting to wonder if the Finnish aliens act can legally be applied to a family member of an EU citizen. Under EU law of equal treatment, since a Finnish citizen is not penalized for having an expired passport, it is not lawful to penalize any other EU citizen or their family members.

Equal treatment
The most important of these rights is the right to equal treatment. Article 18 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union stipulates that, within the scope of application of EU law and without affecting any special provisions, any discrimination on grounds of nationality is prohibited. The Directive extends this right to family members, which means that EU citizens and their family members residing in the territory of the host EU country enjoy equal treatment with the nationals of that EU country within the scope of the Treaty.
from http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/ci ... nt_low.pdf

One other interesting finding for EEA citizens and aliens exercising free movement. In regards for penalties for failure to obtain/keep current a residence permit card. "EU countries can impose the same sanctions as those imposed on their own nationals for failure to carry their identity card. " Since Finland does not give a penalty for failing to carry ID the fine would have to be 0.

I don't believe Finland should criminalize expired passports or visas for permanent residents. Everything is in the Finnish computer system. You simply are not allowed to travel until you have the correct documents.


Upphew
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Re: length/cost of permanent resident card

Post by Upphew » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:27 pm

mshamber wrote:I am starting to wonder if the Finnish aliens act can legally be applied to a family member of an EU citizen.
Family member of EU citizen doesn't need residence permit and thus not residence permit card. They get residence card. Did you apply for residence permit card or residence card?
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


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