citizenship question

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heretostay
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by heretostay » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:11 pm

Piapia wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:17 pm
Voliksenda wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:23 pm
Meanwhile I am having an afterthought about it:

Please note that if the total allowed time period is calculated as all these stated periods are allowed without any restriction (6monthsX2times + 2 monthsX6times + unlimited number of 1 months..).. and without no such upper bound for max. allowed trip times and durations.. then why 5 years residence period is asked for?.. basically by being in the country once in a while, someone can still fulfil the criteria of residence period after 5 years

If someone gets a clear and straight info. from Migri, and shares here, this would be very beneficial for many people who are planning to apply to citizenship. I have seen some applicants who were not aware of these details with trips and very disappointed with receiving negative decision afterwards..

btw, am 99.9% sure about briefly the ' <6 month, 6-12 month and >12 ' rule.. but I will gladly accept that I am wrong if someone brings direct info. from Migri.. :wink:
I would not say that the trips less than one month are unlimited because this is also on the migri website:

“if you spend several weeks abroad within a year, your period of residence may be interrupted.”

http://migri.fi/en/period-of-residence



Re: citizenship question

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Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:47 pm

Exactly, that's what I meant.. even for 1 month trips there is a limitation with the trip number.. if it is too often.. in principle someone may be considered as living abroad during that period.. visiting country once in a while in order to stay within the allowed trip duration of 1 month or 2 months.. it doesn't help.. again it may be accepted as interruption by Migri..

I also personally know someone who applied to citizenship after 5 years, but the trip duration in total was deducted from the residence period, and the decision was negative because of inadequate period of residence..

zhalsuk
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by zhalsuk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:36 am

Piapia wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:14 pm
Hi again,

I want to say;

1) The trips are counted separately: meaning that if you have 2 trips lasting 2-6 months --> that' s ok for continuous residence
- if you have 3 trips lasting 2-6 months--> violation of the limit --> Interrupted --> Accumulated period of residence
- if you have 7 periods of 1-2 months trips --> interrupted --> Accumulated period of residence
- if you have 1-time of 3-month trip + 4-times of 1-month trip --> that' s ok for continuous residential (but in total > 6 months) ===> The trips are not counted as residential time, so this 7-month is a minus for your own residence period.

In addition.......

2) All trip time is collected as well; if it is >1 year ==> Interrupted - Accumulated period of residence

3) There is also such an issue: If the trips are too often (the frequency of the trips), Migri might consider the case as 'Interrupted' - This was written on the previous migri-page.
The main document the migri uses in making their decision is the Finnish Nationality Act. https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokse ... 070974.pdf - here is the translation of the older vesion of the law.
The current version of the law was updated in 2011. Here's the update in finnish: https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/alkup/201 ... ttamisesta

There is nothing in the law about the sum of trips. So all of this guesswork does not seem to be legit=)
I admit that the law states "Yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika katkeaa lisäksi, jos poissaoloja on niin säännöllisesti ja niin paljon, että hakijan voidaan katsoa oleskelleen tai oleskelevan enimmäkseen Suomen ulkopuolella.", but it does not say anything about the total length of all trips.

I think they've included this sentence to avoid situations in which people de facto reside in another country (e.g. Russia or Estonia), but travel regularly to Finland to comply with "shorter than a month abscence" requirement. I don't think short weekend trips to different countries would interrupt the residence if a person actually lives, works, and pays taxes in FInland even when the total amount of this short trips is big. If, however, a person is regularly "travelling" to one specific country, while in fact he's travelling to Finland from that country, then it gives the authorities a reason to make a neagative dcision. This is my interpretation=)

Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:05 am

then it gives the authorities a reason to make a neagative decision. This is my interpretation=)
[/quote]

From this point of view I totally agree with you.. it is more related with the nature of the trips.. whether it is mainly considered as someone living in an other country and visiting Finland during a certain period of time.. because even weekly trips can also be regarded as interruption depending on the frequency.. for permanent residence permit, 2 years (half of the required period) is clearly stated, but for citizenship in order to prevent some unfavourable attempts, it is even stated weekly trips can also be regarded as 'interruption'..

Migri says: 'If you are absent from Finland for longer than a year, your continuous period of residence is interrupted.'

well.. someone can have ' 1 trip of 6 months + 1 trip of 4 months + and 4 trip of 1 month'... this scheme is fitting perfectly to the allowed limits for continuous period of residence.. but.. in total.. 14 months.. my point is that --> this period is interrupted.. Because this person is absent from Finland for longer than a year..

and another aspect.. someone can have 1 trip of 5 months, after 3 days another trip 6 months, after 1 day another trip of 2 months.. This person has not been living in Finland for 13 months.. (although trip durations are within the limits).. but the same person is absent from Finland for longer than a year.. so there is no difference between this person or another one who takes 1 trip lasting for a continuous period of 13 months.

I am also trying to explain that if someone applies after 4 years, 3.5 years is the min. demanded asumisaika.. or for 5 years.. 4.5 is the min. required asumisaika.

Before these calculations becomes more complicated, I am about to send an email to Migri to clarify these things forever :lol:

Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:08 pm

Kansalaisuuslaki: ' Yli kuusi kuukautta, mutta enintään vuoden kestäneitä tilapäisiä poissaoloja ei oteta mukaan yhtäjaksoista asumisaikaa laskettaessa. Ne eivät kuitenkaan katkaise yhtäjaksoista asumisaikaa.'

The original law text.
saying ' maximum 1 year lasting temporary absences '

I thought it would be good if the original text stays here as well.. :)

dan75
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by dan75 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:42 pm

Piapia wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:08 pm
Kansalaisuuslaki: ' Yli kuusi kuukautta, mutta enintään vuoden kestäneitä tilapäisiä poissaoloja ei oteta mukaan yhtäjaksoista asumisaikaa laskettaessa. Ne eivät kuitenkaan katkaise yhtäjaksoista asumisaikaa.'

The original law text.
saying ' maximum 1 year lasting temporary absences '

I thought it would be good if the original text stays here as well.. :)
Thanks Piapia :thumbsup:

zhalsuk
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by zhalsuk » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:05 am

Piapia wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:05 am

and another aspect.. someone can have 1 trip of 5 months, after 3 days another trip 6 months, after 1 day another trip of 2 months.. This person has not been living in Finland for 13 months.. (although trip durations are within the limits).. but the same person is absent from Finland for longer than a year.. so there is no difference between this person or another one who takes 1 trip lasting for a continuous period of 13 months.

Before these calculations becomes more complicated, I am about to send an email to Migri to clarify these things forever :lol:
I agree that in this situation the period would most likely be considered interrupted. But I think this part of the law would apply in this case: "Yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika katkeaa lisäksi, jos poissaoloja on niin säännöllisesti ja niin paljon, että hakijan voidaan katsoa oleskelleen tai oleskelevan enimmäkseen Suomen ulkopuolella."

Let's imagine another sitaution: a person applies for citizenship after 5 years of residence. Lets imagine that at the beginning of this period this person went for a student exchange for 5 months, and also spends a month abroad on holidays every year. Additionally, this person goes to Estonia and Sweeden once in a while over the weekends. Add to this short-term work trips. The total amount of abscence can easily be more than a year, but I don't think that in this case the residence was interrupted at any point, nor when the accumulated trips length went through 1 year.

If someone applies for citizenship let's say after 8 and 10 year, then the probability that your total time of abscence would be higher than a year increases, doesn't it? But it certainly does not mean that the residence period is interrupted if the trips are distributed evenly and there are no big groups of abscences close to each other.

I don't think Migri's practices can differ from the law, which does not say anything about accumilated length of abscences.
But let's see what migri replies to you!

Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:59 pm

Migri-page says: ' Normal holiday trips are allowed during your uninterrupted residence in Finland. For example, if you spend three weeks or a month abroad during your summer holiday, your continuous period of residence is not interrupted. However, if you spend several weeks abroad within a year, your period of residence may be interrupted. '

**But may not be interrupted as well.....
According to this statement, not only the total duration.. but the frequency of the trip, the purpose of the trips.. all are important factors.. I think this must be the reason of why there is no such a clear-cut number of days are given by Migri for citizenship as defined for permanent residence permit.. Because according to this statement, someone might have 5-times weekly trips, and Migri may consider this period as 'interruption'! Even tho this person has only 3 months of 'total trip time'.

Migri makes the decisions case by case..
Law says in case you have more than 2-times of 2-6 months lasting trips, this is interruption, then we do not need to discuss this fact..

and law saying that if you are absent from Finland for longer than a year.. then again this is interruption. No need to discuss this fact either..

My point is that when you are on a trip, by definition you are absent from Finland :D so the connection between my statement and the Law can be made easily..

And one last point: For citizenship, since the trips can be evaluated in different pots by Migri, I can understand why there is no such a clear-cut given number of days regarding residence period..

and this is from an email that I received from Migri:

'Kansalaisuuslain ja sen vakiintuneen soveltamiskäytännön mukaan asumisaikaedellytyksen täyttyminen edellyttää tosiasiallista sekä yhtäjaksoisesti luvallista riittävän pitkää asumista Suomessa. Sinänsä esimerkiksi henkilö, joka täyttää kielitaitoedellytyksen ja jolla on kiinteät siteet Suomeen (Suomen kansalainen perheenjäsen tai useita A-lupia), on oikeutettu 4 vuoden asumisaikavaatimukseen. Pääsääntöinen asumisaikavaatimus on kuitenkin 5 vuotta ja mahdollinen asumisajan katkeaminen pidentää vaadittavan asumisajan 6-7 vuoteen. (tämä tapahtuu kun oleskelulupaketjussa on selkeitä katkoja tai tehdään pitkiä ulkomaanmatkoja) B-luvilla oleskeltu aika voidaan laskea puolestaan mukaan asumisaikaan vain poikkeussäännöksen perusteella ja jos luvissa ei ole ollenkaan katkoja. Oleskelulupaketjun ja asumisajan tulee siis olla päätöshetkellä katkeamaton ja Suomessa oleskelun tosiasiallista/todellista. '

According to this email of Migri: Unless there is a clear interruption and a long abroad trip involved, I would not worry about my case..
The weekend trips to Sweden will not be evaluated in the same pot with a trip of 4 months..

btw am not the decision maker person in these trip matters for citizenship :lol:
I had worried a lot before submitting my own application, and read all these laws to be sure it will not cause me headache afterwards,
and I can understand the people questioning their own residence period on the verge of their application.. I hope these discussions here will relieve some people :)
plus Migri (mostly) replied my emails in a few days, so instead of having headaches, anybody can directly send an email with ID number to Migri and learn what applies in their own case.. :thumbsup:

Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:06 pm

Ok.. Noone brought any direct info. from Migri :roll: , and I did the whole job by myself!.. after several emails.. I am gladly accepting that I was WRONG :D :lol:

Straight info. from Migri: ' Kansalaisuuslain mukaan yli kuuden kuukauden mutta alle vuoden kestävä poissaolo tarkoittaa tässä tapauksessa yhtä matkaa. Tätä matkaa ei lasketa mukaan asumisaikaan, mutta se ei katkaise yhtenäistä asumisaikaa. '

** One trip exceeding 6-month is not counted as residence period.

From Migri: Kansalaisuuslain 16 §:n mukaan:
”Muut kuin lyhyet poissaolot katkaisevat yhtäjaksoisen asumisajan. Yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika katkeaa lisäksi, jos poissaoloja on niin säännöllisesti ja niin paljon, että hakijan voidaan katsoa oleskelleen tai oleskelevan enimmäkseen Suomen ulkopuolella. Jos poissaolo on johtunut painavasta henkilökohtaisesta syystä, ei yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika kuitenkaan katkea.''

Straight info from Migri: 'Verkkosivujen ilmaisu 'Yli vuoden poissaolo katkaisee yhtäjaksoisen asumisaikasi' tarkoittaa yhtä matkaa, ei kaikkia matkoja yhteensä.'
** The absence over 1 year indicates only 1 trip, not the total of all trips.

I am happy for my contribution to clarify these issues at this point..
and.. hmm..
“Pride is pride not because it hates being wrong, but because it loves being wrong: To hate being wrong is to change your opinion when you are proven wrong; whereas pride, even when proven wrong, decides to go on being wrong.”

am becoming wiser.. or getting aged :lol:
Last edited by Piapia on Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zhalsuk
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:20 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by zhalsuk » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:33 pm

Piapia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:06 pm
Ok.. Noone didn't bring any direct info. from Migri :roll: , and I did the whole job by myself!.. after several emails.. I am gladly accepting that I was WRONG :D :lol:

Straight info. from Migri: ' Kansalaisuuslain mukaan yli kuuden kuukauden mutta alle vuoden kestävä poissaolo tarkoittaa tässä tapauksessa yhtä matkaa. Tätä matkaa ei lasketa mukaan asumisaikaan, mutta se ei katkaise yhtenäistä asumisaikaa. '

** One trip exceeding 6-month is not counted as residence period.

From Migri: Kansalaisuuslain 16 §:n mukaan:
”Muut kuin lyhyet poissaolot katkaisevat yhtäjaksoisen asumisajan. Yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika katkeaa lisäksi, jos poissaoloja on niin säännöllisesti ja niin paljon, että hakijan voidaan katsoa oleskelleen tai oleskelevan enimmäkseen Suomen ulkopuolella. Jos poissaolo on johtunut painavasta henkilökohtaisesta syystä, ei yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika kuitenkaan katkea.''

Straight info from Migri: 'Verkkosivujen ilmaisu 'Yli vuoden poissaolo katkaisee yhtäjaksoisen asumisaikasi' tarkoittaa yhtä matkaa, ei kaikkia matkoja yhteensä.'
** The absence over 1 year indicates only 1 trip, not the total of all trips.

I am happy for my contribution to clarify these issues at this point..
and.. hmm..
“Pride is pride not because it hates being wrong, but because it loves being wrong: To hate being wrong is to change your opinion when you are proven wrong; whereas pride, even when proven wrong, decides to go on being wrong.”

am becoming wiser.. or getting aged :lol:
Thank you for clarifying with Migri Piapia!

hiworld
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by hiworld » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:57 am

Piapia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:06 pm
Ok.. Noone didn't bring any direct info. from Migri :roll: , and I did the whole job by myself!.. after several emails.. I am gladly accepting that I was WRONG :D :lol:

Straight info. from Migri: ' Kansalaisuuslain mukaan yli kuuden kuukauden mutta alle vuoden kestävä poissaolo tarkoittaa tässä tapauksessa yhtä matkaa. Tätä matkaa ei lasketa mukaan asumisaikaan, mutta se ei katkaise yhtenäistä asumisaikaa. '

** One trip exceeding 6-month is not counted as residence period.

From Migri: Kansalaisuuslain 16 §:n mukaan:
”Muut kuin lyhyet poissaolot katkaisevat yhtäjaksoisen asumisajan. Yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika katkeaa lisäksi, jos poissaoloja on niin säännöllisesti ja niin paljon, että hakijan voidaan katsoa oleskelleen tai oleskelevan enimmäkseen Suomen ulkopuolella. Jos poissaolo on johtunut painavasta henkilökohtaisesta syystä, ei yhtäjaksoinen asumisaika kuitenkaan katkea.''

Straight info from Migri: 'Verkkosivujen ilmaisu 'Yli vuoden poissaolo katkaisee yhtäjaksoisen asumisaikasi' tarkoittaa yhtä matkaa, ei kaikkia matkoja yhteensä.'
** The absence over 1 year indicates only 1 trip, not the total of all trips.

I am happy for my contribution to clarify these issues at this point..
and.. hmm..
“Pride is pride not because it hates being wrong, but because it loves being wrong: To hate being wrong is to change your opinion when you are proven wrong; whereas pride, even when proven wrong, decides to go on being wrong.”

am becoming wiser.. or getting aged :lol:
Thank you Piapia for the confirmation from Migri!
can i also ask possibly a stupid question, how could migri know if we do a short trip to sweden/estonia? as there is a no border control

Piapia
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:49 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by Piapia » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:14 am

I reported each trip, and signed the information was correct and full etc.. on the application form.
Migri officer additionally took copies of each marked page on my passport.. but I remember I never received stamp for some of my trips within Europe as well.. so, basically based on your own statement..

dan75
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:53 pm

Re: citizenship question

Post by dan75 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:35 pm

Thanks a lot Piapia, Now it is more clear and understood.


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