Learning/Recovering from the shock of winning for a change.

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PeterF
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:00 pm

Learning/Recovering from the shock of winning for a change.

Post by PeterF » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:19 am

I think that one of the most interesting fact that I am sorry to say is unlikely to be emulated by the England soccer fraternity is "Just one arrest was reported amid the more than 80,000 crowd at the Telstra stadium in Sydney."

So first the good news.for UK sports.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3232694.stm

Then sorry more bad news ..another English football player in the news for the wrong reason.
Kills a guy in a car smash then runs away from the scene... why?
Suspicion must be that he had been drinking.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 230716.stm



Learning/Recovering from the shock of winning for a change.

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Ace

Post by Ace » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:48 am

Here we go :-) See my other post about the rugby victory being used as a stick to beat football. Dont you think the rugby players want to bask in their own glory without petty comparisons to the national sport being made? :wink:

PeterF
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:00 pm

Post by PeterF » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:59 am

Ace wrote:Here we go :-) See my other post about the rugby victory being used as a stick to beat football.
I would hope that the Rugby success, on and off the field by players and fans, would serve as an example to the soccer fans and players, not just as a stick to try and knock some sense into them.

It is the fact the soccer is the national sport which makes me hope for this dream to at least move in the direction of reality.

By the way you ask the right questions yourself but what is the answer? copy paste..
"why cant our footballers be gentlemen like our rugby players"
"why cant our footballers have the same pride for the national shirt"
"Why cant our footballers be well behaved........"

Ace

Post by Ace » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:10 am

Peter Floyd wrote:I would hope that the Rugby success, on and off the field by players and fans, would serve as an example to the soccer fans and players, not just as a stick to try and knock some sense into them.
Well football is a lot bigger, loads more people travelling abroad to games more regularly. If you look at Arsenal and Manchester United supporters and Glasgow Celtic and Rangers as well travelling abroad you'll see that most of the time their behaviour is good too. After the 5 year ban of English clubs from Europe 85-90. there has not been too much trouble at European and World cup games abroad for British fans.

A few isolated incidents, but a lot of those can be attributed to heavy handed policing in countries like Greece and Turkey.

I wouldn't be too quick to compare the two sports, i'm sure Team England ballroom dancing and tiddleywinks players and supporters are ambassadors for Britain abroad too ;-)

Ace

Post by Ace » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:15 pm

Peter Floyd wrote:Then sorry more bad news ..another English football player in the news for the wrong reason.
Kills a guy in a car smash then runs away from the scene... why?
Suspicion must be that he had been drinking.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 230716.stm
Hmm Patrick Kluivert did the same and got away with it:
Faced a manslaughter charge after running
over an art critic while showing off his new sports car. Kluivert escaped with
hours of community service and a driving ban.

Hounded out of Holland by unforgiving supporters with chants of 'Kluivert,
Kluivert can we cross the road' he joined Milan.
http://www.soccer-europe.com/Profiles/Kluivert.html

They won't let him in the USA though:
The American authorities have blocked his passage due to a criminal record for his involvement in a fatal car accident in 1996 which saw him given a community penalty.
http://www.sport.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1721623

He's been done for drink driving and implicated in a gang rape as well:
He was accused of being one of five men involved in a gang rape. After admitting to consensual group sex with the girl, he spent two years under police investigation before charges were eventually dropped.


http://www.soccernet.com/euro2000/news/ ... zepre.html
12/08/2001. Patrick Kluivert could be in hot water after being caught by the police who gave him a one-month ban for drink-driving. Kluivert was 3.5 times over the legal alcohol limit.
http://www.soccerage.com/en/13/b2939.html

Think the English players are bad? The Dutch wrote the book ;-)

I don't think Lee Hughes will be as lucky as Kluivert though :!: At least Kluivert didn't run off. I think Hughes will be serving a significant amount of time :!:

stig
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Joined: Wed May 07, 2003 10:39 am

Post by stig » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:24 am

Ace wrote: Think the English players are bad? The Dutch wrote the book ;-)
Got to love that logic....

"Yeah, there are English (alleged) rapist footballers, (alleged) hit and run driver footballers, and (alleged) drug addict footballers.... but hey, I mean, give em a break... there's this dutch guy whose done it *all* before... ".

(kidding :) )

Recipe for a footballer:
Take one young 16 year old kid.
Mix in more cash than you and I will see in our lifetimes.
Slowly add crowd adoration, hero-worship and media frenzy.
Dust with a fine covering of free time and a picquant of bad advice.

Place on a tray with 10 others. Put in oven, turn up heat. Wait.

Now I don't see this happening in Rugby.

I agree with Ace that it's totally unfair to compare footballers and rugby players with eachother, the sports themselves tend to draw totally different types of people, football attracts much more media attention than rugby (in general, obviously not at the moment..) and the moment a footballer does do something wrong they are made into a pariah. - There are a few rumours I've heard about a certain English rugby star with an italian sounding name allegedly dabbling in the old bolivian marching powder on occasion.... don't know if they're true or not... but nothing is proved so you don't read it in the press. Now, of course, if he were a footballer....

You can't compare the players... apples and oranges innit.

Peter has a real point when it comes to the fans however....

Stig.

Ace

Post by Ace » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:06 am

Well its a class thing isn't it?

I know Britains class system currently resembles this:

CELEBRITY class
RICH class
WANNABEE UPPER MIDDLE class
UNDER CLASS

But back in the day working class Jack used to put in a 60 hour week at the shipyard or mill or whatever, then used to go and watch his football team on saturday, blow all his wages on a few pints of wifebeater, and spend the evening fighting with the opposition supporters.

Whereas Tarquin after spending a week living a similar lifestyle to Bertie Wooster from that early 1990's classic TV series "Jeeves and Wooster" liked nothing better than to spend his saturday day watching his local rugger team the Old Etonians having a ruck in the scrum, and his saturday evening slurping Pimms in the gentlemans club.

Football supporters have always represented the majority of the population of the country, who historically enjoy drinking and fighting and misbehaving. Go to any City Centre in Britain on a friday night and see for yourself.

Most of the footbllers come from the lower classes too, the only reason a lot of them aren't doing some porridge already is that they happened to be blessed with some skills that kept them out of mischief (for the time being at least).

PeterF
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:00 pm

Post by PeterF » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:41 am

My opinion for the different behaviour of the Rugby and Football fraternaties is summed up in one word MONEY.

You have to take into account that payment for playing rugby even at the very top level is a very recent inovation....One played for the fun and the love of the game. :wink:
In my days of playing in front of paying crowds (1965-75) there started to creep into through the bar window "re-payment of players expences!"
There were even strong rumours that across the border in Wales that money appeared in ones boot after a good match/win.
But the ever watchfull press were always eager to spot any real indication that we were actualy getting paid or had any on -going fiddles to obtain money for unreal expences. :wink:
GRFC commitee was neurotic to stay whiter than white and typical of the RFU stance. Grrr "two signatures sect and captain" ...Grrr "did all 15 of us travel in one car and claim for 15 cars!?"
"Does not mater what the taffys do we are the old school tie raaah raah raah!"
I think there was only one of the "commitee" who had ever played first team rugby..but now things have improved.
One good thing about making Rugby Union pro was that the Old school tie no longer opens doors to the commitee room ..the sponsers demand return on their investment. They want to see the Rugby experience qualifications of the commitee not the school ties..but....
The question now is How long will it be before Money makes rugby as bad as soccer?

Ace

Post by Ace » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:47 am

Peter Floyd wrote:The question now is How long will it be before Money make rugby as bad as soccer?
But haven't the league players always been paid? Whats the score with Wigan v St Helens? A bit of slap and tickle after them games too? If League players were in the limelight would a few stories of hit and runs and gangrapes come out too?

Personally I prefer league, a lot faster and more entertaining IMO.

PeterF
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:00 pm

Post by PeterF » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:50 am

Ace wrote:
Peter Floyd wrote:The question now is How long will it be before Money make rugby as bad as soccer?
But haven't the league players always been paid?

If League players were in the limelight would a few stories of hit and runs and gangrapes come out too?

.
1: Peanuts..in todays sports salary ratings...crowds too small and too local so big sponsers not attracted.
2: Exactly they are not in the limelight so the press dont report other than facts and scores and do not "hound" them after the match..TV coverage nowdays is rare so back pocket money is thin..so the talent leaves Wigan/St Helens and heads for Sale.

Ace

Post by Ace » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:28 am

Tsk, those rugby players eh? Why cant they be gentlemen like our footballers ;-)
The St Kilda saga is the latest in a series of sex scandals to plague National Rugby League and Australian Football League codes in recent weeks.


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