Water from Tap

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Juha H.
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Location: Palokka, Finland

Post by Juha H. » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:09 pm

I agree with Meri-Tuuli regarding the consumption of milk. I gave up using cow's milk at the age of four and haven't drunk a single spoonful since that. Neither have I tasted cream, yoghurt or sour milk (viili). I do like cheese and some other products.

A human adult does not need what little calves eat!



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Meri-Tuuli
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Post by Meri-Tuuli » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:30 pm

Oh wow, thats good to hear. Many Finns just love drinking milk...

And I've slightly digressed off the topic of tap water......

I'm drinking my tap water at the moment and it tastes just lovely.

Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:31 pm

You know, some might need visit to dairy farm.

There will be no "pus", badly taken care of cow does not produce milk well so farmers would not be negligent of hygiene.

Neither is there all kinds lf "cr@p" fed to them, over here my neighbour lets them roam free eating grass (much less troublesome for him) and guess what grows on those fields we rented to him... Grass mainly. And he does not use it himself.

As for being awful and denying calf milk it needs... Thanks to skilled breeding modern cows tend to produce far more milk than is needed by calf. It can drink only up to 6 litres per day, which is about 20% from production of some cow species.

Of course everyone is free to drink whatever they want, but I personally find modern "no milk, bottled water"-idea of road to health to be more along lines of being made trendy to up sales for stuff like soymilk and bottle water, instead of actually being healthier in any notable way.

Rosamunda
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Post by Rosamunda » Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:37 pm

Cows that graze on rolling fields of luscious green grass :lol: Looked outside lately??????? And yes, even if they do eat grass and hay (and many of them do) they also get stuffed with all kinds of antibiotics and other rubbish which of course gets transmitted into the milk. And soon we will all be drinking cows milk from cloned cattle (which IIRC has already got the OK from the US FDA)... Can't wait!

As for the baby calf thing.... don't get me started on that one. Have you ever seen veal for sale in Finland... rarely. Most of the calves are destroyed soon after birth and the meat is exported. It is impossible to produce milk at current market prices any other way.

BTW, my parents live opposite a dairy farm (OK not in Finland) but I know exactly what happens to dairy cattle.

Talking of "trendy"..... the trendy thing these days is to drink cows milk (in China) which is why the price of dairy products is about to go through the roof. Will be VERY interesting to monitor the health trends of Chinese folk who have switched to a dairy diet.

'Nother thing, at a guess, soja milk has a much smaller carbon footprint than cows' milk... now that is VERY trendy!

Why do you think homo sapiens is lactose intolerant? Why are so many people lactose intolerant today? Why don't we all have the enzymes to digest milk? Maybe Mother Nature just got it all wrong.

AFAIK (and I remember a programme on USA NPR a few months ago about this) there has never been a completely independent large-scale study into the effects of dairy products on public health. Nearly all the research is wholly or partially funded by the Agro-Food industry.

enk
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Post by enk » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:09 pm

JohnWatson wrote:btw / has anyone noticed there is no public fountain at the Hki airport?
Ever noticed that HKI is the only flaming airport in the world without
a public phone? They're supposed to have put some in last week
or so, but dunno if they've gotten around to it.
Tiwaz wrote:Not many equally good sources of calcium actually. And D-vitamin is vital for it's absorption.
As the 6-year-old pointed out today at dinner, luomumaito doesn't
have Vitamin D added to it.

-enk
Last edited by enk on Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:11 pm

penelope wrote:Cows that graze on rolling fields of luscious green grass :lol: Looked outside lately??????? And yes, even if they do eat grass and hay (and many of them do) they also get stuffed with all kinds of antibiotics and other rubbish which of course gets transmitted into the milk. And soon we will all be drinking cows milk from cloned cattle (which IIRC has already got the OK from the US FDA)... Can't wait!
That is why guy called Artturi Iivari Virtanen came up with AIV.
Keeps grass fresh for longer time.

Or what did you think they were feeding?

And fad about antibiotics has not yet landed here. As for cloned cattle... Haven't you noticed that europeans, and particularily finns, tend to find all genetic manipulation of food with huge grain of salt. I wouldn't predict cattle cloning (specially due to it's complexity and cost compared to natures own bull+cow solution is higher) getting here soon.

As for the baby calf thing.... don't get me started on that one. Have you ever seen veal for sale in Finland... rarely. Most of the calves are destroyed soon after birth and the meat is exported. It is impossible to produce milk at current market prices any other way.
So? Or are you vegetarian? Personally I don't know current practice with calf here, but you should remember that artificial insemination (which is how new little cattle is produced by and large) is not free either. So I have my doubts on your claim.

Calves are separated soon though, to prevent bonding for example.
BTW, my parents live opposite a dairy farm (OK not in Finland) but I know exactly what happens to dairy cattle.
And Finland is rather far from most of the world in these matters. You should go check up on finnish dairy farm. I inherited small old farm (not functioning) and we have 2 active dairy farms and 1 beef cattle farm as neighbours.
Talking of "trendy"..... the trendy thing these days is to drink cows milk (in China) which is why the price of dairy products is about to go through the roof. Will be VERY interesting to monitor the health trends of Chinese folk who have switched to a dairy diet.

'Nother thing, at a guess, soja milk has a much smaller carbon footprint than cows' milk... now that is VERY trendy!
And it tastes horrible.
Why do you think homo sapiens is lactose intolerant? Why are so many people lactose intolerant today? Why don't we all have the enzymes to digest milk? Maybe Mother Nature just got it all wrong.
Why some people have coeliac disease? Are humans not supposed to eat wheat and whatnot?
AFAIK (and I remember a programme on USA NPR a few months ago about this) there has never been a completely independent large-scale study into the effects of dairy products on public health. Nearly all the research is wholly or partially funded by the Agro-Food industry.
Wow. However, lack of evidence is not evidence of opposite. If there is no evidence of great harmful effects of dairy consumption, it just might be becaues there are no great harmful effects of dairy consumption...

Meri-Tuuli
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Post by Meri-Tuuli » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:54 pm

Well said Penelope.

Here is just one study published recently:

1: Cancer Detect Prev. 2007;31(4):339-43.

Consumption of commercial whole and non-fat milk increases the incidence of 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene-induced mammary tumors in rats.

Qin LQ, Xu JY, Tezuka H, Li J, Arita J, Hoshi K, Sato A.

Department of Obstetrics & Gynecology, School of Medicine, Yamanashi University, Chuo City, Shimokato 1110, Yamanashi 409-3898, Japan; School of Radiation Medicine & Public Health, Soochow University, Suzhou, China.

Background: Breast cancer has become the most common cancer among women worldwide. Although the consumptions of milk and dairy products were considered to be a risk factor for breast cancer in some epidemiological studies, the results were inconsistent. Methods: In the present study, female Sprague-Dawley rats received a single oral dose of 5mg 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene (DMBA). One week later, the animals were divided into four groups: whole milk (WM), artificial whole milk (A-WM), non-fat milk (NFM) or artificial non-fat milk (A-NFM) mixed with commercial powder chow. Rats were palpated weekly to monitor tumor development. At week 20 after DMBA administration, rats were decapitated and the volume and weight of mammary tumor were recorded. Results: Tumor incidence, the cumulative number of tumors and the sums of tumor volume were higher in the WM and NFM groups than in the A-WM and A-NFM groups both at palpation and at autopsy. Conclusion: Combining our previous studies, we found the consumption of milk promoted the development of DMBA-induced mammary tumors in rats independent of the fat level.

sammy
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Post by sammy » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:59 pm

Meri-Tuuli wrote:In the present study, female Sprague-Dawley rats received a single oral dose of 5mg 7,12-dimethylbenz(a)anthracene (DMBA)...

(snip snip)

...At week 20 after DMBA administration, rats were decapitated...
Conclusion: if you drink milk, your head falls off.

Best avoided :lol:

Meri-Tuuli
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Post by Meri-Tuuli » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:00 pm

That made me laugh sammy.

EP
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Post by EP » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:08 pm

Have you ever seen veal for sale in Finland... rarely. Most of the calves are destroyed soon after birth and the meat is exported.
Well, no, nothing like that happens. You don´t see veal for sale in Finland because here it is illegal to grow an animal in the conditions where the result is "veal". "Veal" is the meat of an animal that has grown 4-6 months in horrible conditions, veal is not meat from a little calf. So in order to produce veal, farmers would either have to break the law, or export the animals abroad when they are 1 week old so that some farmers abroad could raise them for 4-6 months. A calf is 1-2 weeks old when it is put into veal-growing conditions.

I am afraid Finnish calfs grow into cows and bulls.

Tiwaz
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Post by Tiwaz » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:14 pm

And this study uses one carcinogen and it's effects. Unless there are tests performed with other carcinogens (which are plentiful) we do not know if this is singular case.

Or if artificial milk like soymilk is highly carcinogenic with other product.

But you are right, better try to avoid 7,12-DIMETHYLBENZ(A)ANTHRACENE...

If your regular diet includes notable amounts of that stuff you have far more pressing issues than drinking milk.

JohnWatson

Post by JohnWatson » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:19 pm

Penelope has written that she only uses 'organic milk' as opposed to cows' milk - I asked what 'organic milk' is but so far there has not been an answer - at least haven't noticed one.

??

As for Hki airport - it has no public water, no public phones, ridiculous crowding except on the Finnair side - and there they have organized a ridiculous long line dumping out into 25 'windows' - where they can't even come up with high technology to have a light blinking to tell which is the free 'window'

Very sad eating possibilities - little variety dominated by high prices

When arriving you are often dumped off at some god forsaken dock position where you haven't the foggiest idea where to go - and end up fighting through souvenir shops etc searching for a continuation of the 'exit' direction - and that's for people that know the airport somewhat - what about those landing for the first time?

And yet they keep claiming it is voted as the world's best airport. Who do they interview - vagabond Russians from Irkutzk? I have been in some 100 or more airports - and many leaving much to be desired - but IMHO Helsinki is NOTHING to brag about.

Rosamunda
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Post by Rosamunda » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:10 pm

Organic milk is cows milk. I use it because (a) it is not homogenised (b) the cows are not reared using intensive farming methods (c) it is reasonably priced and readily available

(BTW I also buy organic eggs, which come from hens, same as ordinary eggs)

http://www.valio.fi/portal/page/portal/ ... tuory=1767

http://www.valio.fi/portal/page/portal/ ... tuory=1767

BTW: everyone I know who has ever come to visit me in Finland says how EASY it is to get through Helsinki airport.

You remind me of someone.... your name rings a bell....

JohnWatson

Post by JohnWatson » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:48 am

BTW: everyone I know who has ever come to visit me in Finland says how EASY it is to get through Helsinki airport.
That has never been an issue on which I judge airports (that matter is set by a country's border policies - noy airport management) as I'ne only been hastled at US airports.

I'm more comverned with the 1-2-3-4 hours one is often forced to be in an airport for one reason or another.

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rinso
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Post by rinso » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:04 am

with the 1-2-3-4 hours one is often forced to be in an airport
1-2 hours: visit the aviation museum on the airport
3-4 hours: go to down town Helsinki


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