Experiences: Parking Fines

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MTB
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:31 pm

Thanks upphew for clarifications.
It is not my intention to break the law or to draw the line somewhere else than it is or... etc.
Just sometimes !"#¤% happens. Like, not realizing you don't have coins until it is too late. And getting coins without parking the car first might be sometimes difficult. Nowadays luckily most of the places I park in can take a bank card. There are some situations when some flexibility doesn't hurt, as I have mentioned. I have to be flexible in traffic almost everyday, I don't hit the other car if the driver broke the law with 1 mm.
I am not making my life difficult, as now I know how anal they are (after about 5 parking fines in almost 3 years, and no other traffic offences of any kind). Though probably I will still get 2 parking fines per year. That's life, it's a good compromise between relaxation, as in not feeling like in a concentration camp, and money. I am not deliberately searching for trouble, nevertheless, it is my right to expose my opinion about it.



Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

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Pursuivant
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:41 pm

You chose to use that parking space
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umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:15 am

Upphew wrote:
umit wrote:Well, it seems that excellent Finnish education system fails to teach you good reasoning (See: Fallacy. Which one suits you the best? Straw Man???) or you are underestimating foreigners logic.
So sometimes 500cm is mandatory and other times optional? Who should decide when 500 is 500 and when not? What if there is difference of opinion, warden vs. you vs. salesman?

I'm not underestimating anyone's logic yet. Just probing the logic behind opinion. I know how things are done here, sometimes I know why they are done that way. Why change the way?
I gave 500cm distance to crossing as an example, so if we will discuss about the logic behind my opinion let's stick to this example. If you give other examples which are also 500cm long, you are talking about nonsense... Because, in some cases 0.0000000000001 cm would be crutial.

So far we have been talking on a hypothetical situation. Let's come to reality... Go out and check the streets. You'll see many cars parked less than 5m to the zebra crossings (4m, even 3m) but none of them has got a ticket. Or you try yourself and park your car 4.5 meters away, your chances to get a ticket is nearly none. Because, in reality nobody measures the exact distance after they park. In that situation common sense would say "This person is aware of the 5m rule and made an effort to obey it. Maybe he couldn't judge the distance correctly, but 50cm violation of the rule does not pose any threat to the pedestrians in this specific case". What is the harm in that? So, a warden can decide when 500 is 500 or not. If there is difference of opinion a judge may decide (it is why they are for, otherwise everything is clear in the laws, isn't it?), if possible.

I still can't believe everybody here defends zero tolerance policy in implementing the rules.

Zero tolerance imposes automatic punishment for infractions of a stated rule, with the intention of eliminating undesirable conduct. Zero tolerance policies forbid persons in positions of authority from exercising discretion or changing punishments to subjectively fit the circumstances; they are required to impose a pre-determined punishment regardless of individual culpability, extenuating circumstances, or past history. This pre-determined punishment need not be severe, but it is always meted out.

Little evidence supports the claimed effectiveness of zero tolerance policies.

Opponents of zero tolerance believe that such a policy neglects investigation on a case-by-case basis and may lead to unreasonably harsh penalties for crimes that may not warrant such penalties in reality. Another criticism of zero tolerance policies is that it gives officers and the legal system little discretion in dealing with offenders. Zero tolerance policies may prohibit their enforcers from making the punishment fit the crime.


Agree or not, if a warden issues me a ticket for 1cm or a minute, I would use every possible way not to pay it. The fact that I pay it or not, does not change my opinion about that warden being an idiot £#$½$#.


MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:45 am

umit wrote:So far we have been talking on a hypothetical situation. Let's come to reality... Go out and check the streets. You'll see many cars parked less than 5m to the zebra crossings (4m, even 3m) but none of them has got a ticket. Or you try yourself and park your car 4.5 meters away, your chances to get a ticket is nearly none. Because, in reality nobody measures the exact distance after they park. In that situation common sense would say "This person is aware of the 5m rule and made an effort to obey it. Maybe he couldn't judge the distance correctly, but 50cm violation of the rule does not pose any threat to the pedestrians in this specific case". What is the harm in that? So, a warden can decide when 500 is 500 or not. If there is difference of opinion a judge may decide (it is why they are for, otherwise everything is clear in the laws, isn't it?), if possible.
What you're not seeing is that there are people who are willing to take advantage of loose interpretation of the rules. In your example, you say that the person "made an effort" to obey the rule. I say that he more likely knew full well that he was breaking the law but decided to risk it. Should parking 4.5 meters from the crossing become "acceptable", the next thing is someone parking 4.0 meters from the crossing, then 3.5 meters and so on, until eventually people who are getting fines for parking practically on the crossing are crying about being treated unfairly and complaining that someone else who parked 0.2 meters further away didn't get a ticket and boo hoo. And for the record, some parking wardens do carry measuring tapes or even laser measuring devices to determine whether there is the necessary distance or not. And it's not that difficult to determine whether there's room to park one more car in the space between your car and the crossing, or if it is for you, then you shouldn't be driving in the first place.

I cannot fathom why it is so difficult for some people to understand why there is a determined limit and why you should be penalized for breaking that limit. It's all about fairness and equality. You don't have to like the law, neither do you have to obey the law but in that case you really shouldn't complain for being penalized. If you want to try and change the law, well, there are ways to do that.


Upphew
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Upphew » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:28 pm

umit wrote:I gave 500cm distance to crossing as an example, so if we will discuss about the logic behind my opinion let's stick to this example. If you give other examples which are also 500cm long, you are talking about nonsense... Because, in some cases 0.0000000000001 cm would be crutial.
I'm not talking about nonsense. I'm just trying to see where you would put the line. Because there must be line somewhere.
umit wrote:So far we have been talking on a hypothetical situation. Let's come to reality... Go out and check the streets. You'll see many cars parked less than 5m to the zebra crossings (4m, even 3m) but none of them has got a ticket. Or you try yourself and park your car 4.5 meters away, your chances to get a ticket is nearly none.
I almost disagreed about the reality but then I remembered the R-Kioski nearby...
You really should see me parking... :lol:
umit wrote:Because, in reality nobody measures the exact distance after they park. In that situation common sense would say "This person is aware of the 5m rule and made an effort to obey it. Maybe he couldn't judge the distance correctly, but 50cm violation of the rule does not pose any threat to the pedestrians in this specific case". What is the harm in that? So, a warden can decide when 500 is 500 or not. If there is difference of opinion a judge may decide (it is why they are for, otherwise everything is clear in the laws, isn't it?), if possible.
Harm is in that there is no specific rules to challenge, just a opinion.
umit wrote:I still can't believe everybody here defends zero tolerance policy in implementing the rules.
I like it because it is clear. Don't play with the tolerances, change the limits if there is something wrong with them.
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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:15 pm

Upphew wrote:
umit wrote:I gave 500cm distance to crossing as an example, so if we will discuss about the logic behind my opinion let's stick to this example. If you give other examples which are also 500cm long, you are talking about nonsense... Because, in some cases 0.0000000000001 cm would be crutial.
I'm not talking about nonsense. I'm just trying to see where you would put the line. Because there must be line somewhere.
There is a line somewhere. It's at the five-meter point away from the crossing. It's at the 7am and 7pm points of the parking space. It all seems quite clear to me.
Upphew wrote:
umit wrote:I still can't believe everybody here defends zero tolerance policy in implementing the rules.
I like it because it is clear. Don't play with the tolerances, change the limits if there is something wrong with them.
I agree. When the limits are clear, zero tolerance is fine - it's a binary system. You're within the laws and don't get fined; you break the law and you get fined. Violation or non-violation. There are no shades of grey, and hence no need for 'tolerance'. That's just a flimsy excuse. You either obey the law or you don't - and if you don't, you get fined (if you get caught). You knew this at the start and you made your choice. Be a man about it.


umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:58 am

filecore wrote:There is a line somewhere. It's at the five-meter point away from the crossing. It's at the 7am and 7pm points of the parking space. It all seems quite clear to me.
Upphew wrote:I like it because it is clear. Don't play with the tolerances, change the limits if there is something wrong with them.
For me it is not clear, even more complicated than flexibility.
1- I'm not carrying a measuring tape, there is no way for me to know I parked 499cm away.
2- Are the wardens syncronize their watches with International Atomic Time? How they know 18:59 is really 18:59?
Mike D wrote:And it's not that difficult to determine whether there's room to park one more car in the space between your car and the crossing, or if it is for you, then you shouldn't be driving in the first place.
Nice advice thanks! Next time I get a ticket for violating 5m rule I will argue with the wardens that there were enough room to park a Smart Fortwo in the space between my car and the crossing... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:35 am

MTB wrote:2- Are the wardens syncronize their watches with International Atomic Time? How they know 18:59 is really 18:59?
It will say so on the machine. You could set your watch to 4am if you wanted, it won't make any difference. You choose to park in their space, then you do so according to their rules - which includes obeying the times displayed on their parking ticket machine. Again, quite clear.


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rinso
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by rinso » Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:09 am

umit wrote:I still can't believe everybody here defends zero tolerance policy in implementing the rules.
Lets assume the make a rule; "5+ meters is always legal, 2- meters is always illegal".
Now between 2 and 5 meters it is up to the traffic wardens whether you get a ticket or not.
And that will depend on their mood of the day, season, day or night, dry or slippery, ice hokey results, etc.
But your interpretation if it is ok will probably differ from theirs.
If they give you a ticket for 5- meters, it will be perfectly legal under this rule. Only you're never sure if you violate the rule on that specific moment.
No one line to rule them all is the best and most simple solution.


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Mook
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mook » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:36 am

filecore wrote:
MTB wrote:2- Are the wardens syncronize their watches with International Atomic Time? How they know 18:59 is really 18:59?
It will say so on the machine. You could set your watch to 4am if you wanted, it won't make any difference. You choose to park in their space, then you do so according to their rules - which includes obeying the times displayed on their parking ticket machine. Again, quite clear.
Except that they sit (in their cars) or stand for 5-10 minutes before issuing the ticket.

As for the distance to the crossing.. usually the cars with tickets are the ones that leave less that 1/2 a cars length. Anyhow, the distance before (and after) the crossings are to allow drivers to see pedestrians.

Every morning, very early, the traffic wardens drive round and give tickets to all the cars parked in the wrong areas or too close to crossings. I can imagine people parking for the night and thinking "oh, I'll move it in the morning", but you have to get up really early.
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MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:50 am

umit wrote:
Mike D wrote:And it's not that difficult to determine whether there's room to park one more car in the space between your car and the crossing, or if it is for you, then you shouldn't be driving in the first place.
Nice advice thanks! Next time I get a ticket for violating 5m rule I will argue with the wardens that there were enough room to park a Smart Fortwo in the space between my car and the crossing... :lol: :lol: :lol:
When I wrote that, somehow I knew that you'd come up with an idiotic response like that. With your apparent inability to judge distances, you'd better leave a gap long enough to park a city bus in. Or better yet, just get in the bus.


umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:28 pm

Well guys you forced me to hijack this thread. :ochesey: This is my last post for this thread. That's enough.
rinso wrote:Lets assume the make a rule; "5+ meters is always legal, 2- meters is always illegal".
Now between 2 and 5 meters it is up to the traffic wardens whether you get a ticket or not.
Your example is unacceptable. Thanks god, centuries of accumulated knowledge and evolved philosophy on law making forbids such rules like in your example (except dictatorships).

You still don't get the point. There is no difference between setting a line or a range by a rule and implementing it without giving the enforcer some discretion in favor of the tax payer. Of course this discretion should be a reasonable one, not the mood of the officer...

3 different wardens 3 different situations at the same point:
1- He gives a ticket to a bus parked 490 cm away from the crossing. He thinks this large vehicle would endanger the pedestrians. (Fine)
2- He doesn't give ticket to a Smart Fortwo parked 450 cm away from the crossing. He thinks pedestrians would be seen easily by other drivers. (Fine)
3- He gives a ticket to a Ferrari parked 499 cm away from the crossing. He thinks according to law 500 is legal and 499 is illegal and he is doing his job. (Idiot £$$#½#½)

@MikeD: Your idiotic remarks deserve idiotic responses. My inability to judge distances is a minor one and can be fixed with a measuring tape, compared to your inability to understand the content of a debate, which can only be fixed by brain transplantation... :lol:

Some further reading for those interested:
1- Traffic warden tickets man as wife is dying
2- http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lord ... den-system Same problem was debated at House of Lords 50 years ago! It seems little progress is made :)
3- Lessons in how to be less menacing - from a totalitarian dictatorship
"Discretion: We need to restore a sense of common humanity to traffic wardens - and be nice to them in return"
4- http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=7880
Discretion is allowed by the processing staff who consider representations and challenges to Penalty Charge Notices, taking into account the evidence provided by the motorist and any mitigating circumstances as well as the guidance provided in the Cornwall CPE procedures. Paramount to this is that each case is considered on its own merits and dealt with objectivity, fairness and reasonableness.
5- And this is the best... From the blog of an ex-warden: Using my discretion

Enjoy!!! :beer_yum:


jmakinen
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by jmakinen » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:54 am

I wonder why they don't just put some of that white junk on the sidewalk curb at 5m at the same time they are making (renewing) zebras. It would cover 90+% of x-ings I'm sure.

(I realize this has been a hypothetical example in the argument above - but anyhow)


MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:47 am

umit wrote:@MikeD: Your idiotic remarks deserve idiotic responses. My inability to judge distances is a minor one and can be fixed with a measuring tape, compared to your inability to understand the content of a debate, which can only be fixed by brain transplantation... :lol:
I understand the content of the debate, but the logic of your arguments escapes me. The 5-meter rule is a perfect example of common sense turned into legislation. It's simple enough (5 meters being approximately the space required to park a normal-sized car), fair (leaving no room for interpretation) and perfectly logical (even according to your posts). It's also a relatively minor issue in the greater scheme of things, and the penalty which you might receive for breaking it reflects that. Yet, you challenge it with such vigour that one might think it's a matter of life and death.


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rinso
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by rinso » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:56 am

You still don't get the point. There is no difference between setting a line or a range by a rule and implementing it without giving the enforcer some discretion in favor of the tax payer. Of course this discretion should be a reasonable one, not the mood of the officer...
Giving the traffic warden a "reasonable discretion" is exactly the example I gave. Telling him not to be to strict based on certain conditions creates a grey area where the public doesn't know how the law will be interpreted. And quantifying those conditions precisely will result in the same situation where 5.00 meters is ok and 4.99 isn't. (only it gets more complicated)


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