Experiences: Parking Fines

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Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:23 pm

umit wrote:Your example is unacceptable. Thanks god, centuries of accumulated knowledge and evolved philosophy on law making forbids such rules like in your example (except dictatorships).


No, it is not unacceptable. If there is clear defined line, then it is held ABSOLUTE.

You still don't get the point. There is no difference between setting a line or a range by a rule and implementing it without giving the enforcer some discretion in favor of the tax payer. Of course this discretion should be a reasonable one, not the mood of the officer...

3 different wardens 3 different situations at the same point:
1- He gives a ticket to a bus parked 490 cm away from the crossing. He thinks this large vehicle would endanger the pedestrians. (Fine)
2- He doesn't give ticket to a Smart Fortwo parked 450 cm away from the crossing. He thinks pedestrians would be seen easily by other drivers. (Fine)
3- He gives a ticket to a Ferrari parked 499 cm away from the crossing. He thinks according to law 500 is legal and 499 is illegal and he is doing his job. (Idiot £$$#½#½)


And by same account they could fine cars 5,5meters or 6 meters away because they thought that would be fun.

If law states 500cm, it is 500cm and not a millimeter less or more. Having absolute limitation is benefit of both parties, as having someone interpret things at their whim WOULD make fining someone who parked well over 5 meters away as fine as letting someone park next to crossing.


@MikeD: Your idiotic remarks deserve idiotic responses. My inability to judge distances is a minor one and can be fixed with a measuring tape, compared to your inability to understand the content of a debate, which can only be fixed by brain transplantation... :lol:


But where we would get you brains to replace the other inabilities you have on understanding what rules are...

Rules are to be followed. If you start deciding arbitarily what or when to follow laws, you get places like Greece.
!"#¤% where everyone avoids playing by common rules, resulting in rampant corruption and ruined nation.

I mean... What is the harm in not paying taxes right?



Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

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MTB
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:17 pm

filecore wrote:
MTB wrote:2- Are the wardens syncronize their watches with International Atomic Time? How they know 18:59 is really 18:59?


It will say so on the machine. You could set your watch to 4am if you wanted, it won't make any difference. You choose to park in their space, then you do so according to their rules - which includes obeying the times displayed on their parking ticket machine. Again, quite clear.


And the meter in the parking, is really a meter or is printed somewhere on the back of the ticket machine, and it is 115 cms?
And it is not "their" parking place, it is public property.

You were against drawing the line somewhere else then they should be, but on the other hand, if the parking meter is not inline with the official time some 3 minutes, you are ok with it? I saw this, believe me. And all my watches are right, the phone at least has automatic network synchronization. What about the phone companies? Is it ok if they :mrgreen: tax you 1 minute for every 57 seconds you speak? As it is their network, it is your problem if you decide to use it or not. It can be arranged to put on the website that the minute is 57 seconds when you initiate outgoing calls.

There are situations when the lawmakers didn't anticipate what will happen during time. That's why it should be always the man who is interpreting the law with common sense and having in mind it's original purpose. What if I park a motorcycle 3 meters from the zebra? If it is small enough and doesn't obstruct the traffic anyhow, then no fine. The purpose of law is to protect pedestrians in this case, not to raise money for the budget.


Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:24 am

MTB wrote:And it is not "their" parking place, it is public property.


Nope, it is a paid parking lot. It is not public property where you can do as you please.

You were against drawing the line somewhere else then they should be, but on the other hand, if the parking meter is not inline with the official time some 3 minutes, you are ok with it?


Can you prove that those meters have somehow shorter minutes?
While I admit that this is inconvenient, you have to understand the fact that time you are entitled to park is measured in MINUTES, not from time A to time B. 2 euros for 1 hour. Not 2 euros between 13-14.

And all my watches are right, the phone at least has automatic network synchronization. What about the phone companies? Is it ok if they :mrgreen: tax you 1 minute for every 57 seconds you speak? As it is their network, it is your problem if you decide to use it or not. It can be arranged to put on the website that the minute is 57 seconds when you initiate outgoing calls.


Again, do you have evidence that their minute is somehow shorter? Look at the time in the machine, or ticket, and reference it to your watch and you will know when your parking time ends.

There are situations when the lawmakers didn't anticipate what will happen during time.


!"#¤%. No magic has caused your car to move to illegal zone when you park it. It has been your own decision which does not in any way change how law should be applied.

That's why it should be always the man who is interpreting the law with common sense and having in mind it's original purpose. What if I park a motorcycle 3 meters from the zebra? If it is small enough and doesn't obstruct the traffic anyhow, then no fine. The purpose of law is to protect pedestrians in this case, not to raise money for the budget.


Wrong. Basic principle of law is EQUALITY BEFORE THE LAW. If someone is permitted to do something, like park against the rules, then this basic rule is violated.

If it is parked against the law, then it should be fined.


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Mook
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mook » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:22 am

MTB wrote:The purpose of law is to protect pedestrians in this case, not to raise money for the budget.


So I guess that you would be happy if they built a big bonfire with all the profits that they make?

Alternatively, they could hire more traffic wardens... but I guess it oscilates: more wardens probably leads to less illegal parking which means that there's not enough to pay the wardens.
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MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:48 am

MTB wrote:There are situations when the lawmakers didn't anticipate what will happen during time. That's why it should be always the man who is interpreting the law with common sense and having in mind it's original purpose. What if I park a motorcycle 3 meters from the zebra? If it is small enough and doesn't obstruct the traffic anyhow, then no fine. The purpose of law is to protect pedestrians in this case, not to raise money for the budget.


Actually, the law is all about common sense and fairness. You know where exactly you may park your vehicle without receiving a fine. That, for me at least, is the most important thing.

Yes, smaller vehicles do not block visibility as much as larger vehicles do. Now, let's turn that into a law, shall we? So, shall we say that a motorcycle could be parked 3 meters from the crossing, a passenger car 4 meters, a van at 5 meters and a bus or truck 6 meters from the crossing? But then again, something like a big Honda Goldwing will be almost as much of an obstruction as a normal passenger car, and something like a Mercedes Sprinter can be registered as a passenger car, a van, a truck or a bus depending on your preferences, with no difference in external dimensions, so that's no good. So, shall we say that vehicles not exceeding 1 meter in width and 1.2 meters in height may be parked 3 meters from the crossing, vehicles not exceeding 1.6 meters in width or height may be parked 4 meters from the crossing and so on.... Oh wait, why don't we just have a single, simple limit for all vehicles, one that people can actually remember and one that doesn't require people to memorize the exact external dimensions of whatever they're driving?

Also, you have to remember that this legislation is not only about the safety of the pedestrians, it's also about the convenience of other drivers who will be passing your car. Park too close to the pedestrian crossing and they have to slow down more (or even stop) even if there' s no one trying to cross the street.


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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:06 pm

So I guess that you would be happy if they built a big bonfire with all the profits that they make?


For start, they could clean the snow from the parking spaces, and at least stop issuing fines. Normally, when I am forced to park elsewhere because the same municipality didn't clean the public parking spaces (those assholes could take shovels and clean the snow, if they want to do something usefull), I should go in regress with it and make them pay. But birocracy is so bad, and they anyway reject any kind of appeal you make. Oh, by the way, can anybody give an example when his written appeal succeed in the last 2 years?

[quote=tiwaz]
Nope, it is a paid parking lot. It is not public property where you can do as you please.[/quote]

If you think that a paid parking lot cannot be public property, then any discussion from here is pointless. You don't "rent" a parking place, you pay a usage tax, which is mainly for administration of the property.


About the watches and stuff, when I got a fine at 18.59, I asked a simple thing (in an official complain): when was the last time you checked that your watch/camera's watch was inline with the official time, and do you have a paper proving it? They didn't answer this question, they just rejected my complain with general considerations - probably they have a template. How do I know that the traffic warden didn't forget to adjust his watch according daylight saving? That would've been easy to cancel in court, but the procedure is so bureaucratic and eats you so much time that you give up trying. You need to pay, appeal in 2 weeks - I did, and then they reply in 6 weeks to your complain. And only then you can go to court. By the time you get the rejection to your complain, you forget completely about the fine. That's typically called Kafka bureaucracy. Usually, with this type of approach, people would get relaxed and try to respect the law only when they can be caught, not when it makes sense to respect it (take this last statement with moderation).

One last thing, I am also pissed off by the extent of public urination in Helsinki. You don't see me militating for fines in this matter or for the creation of pissing wardens unit :mrgreen:


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simon
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by simon » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:16 pm

MTB wrote:One last thing, I am also pissed off by the extent of public urination in Helsinki. You don't see me militating for fines in this matter or for the creation of pissing wardens unit :mrgreen:


Never lived in Paris then :wink:


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:28 pm

MTB wrote:I am also pissed off


This has always amused me. It's a British vs American thing; in EnUK "pissed off" is angry while "pissed" is drunk. In EnUS, "pissed" is angry and there's no direct equivalent for "drunk". Occasionally, somebody says "I was so pissed" in reference to some time or event, and from lack of suitable context it's unclear whether they were drunk or angry :-)


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Mook
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mook » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:36 pm

MTB wrote:
So I guess that you would be happy if they built a big bonfire with all the profits that they make?


For start, they could clean the snow from the parking spaces, and at least stop issuing fines. Normally, when I am forced to park elsewhere because the same municipality didn't clean the public parking spaces (those assholes could take shovels and clean the snow, if they want to do something usefull)


From the way you write, t a parking space is a basic right?

I fail to see the problem... there's always a space somewhere, even if you have to go another 500m. From what you said, you don't actually live in the center, so you could always take a bus/taxi.
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MTB
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:12 pm

From the way you write, t a parking space is a basic right?



If you charge money for parking, then you are the administrator of the place, and it is your duty to keep it clean and available for public use, as long as the place is in public property. And yes, as long as I pay taxes to municipality, it is my right to demand that public parking places are cleaned. It's basically a service provided in exchange for my municipality tax.

I fail to see the problem... there's always a space somewhere, even if you have to go another 500m.


So all the people getting parking fines are crazy? They don't want to park their car legally?

Never lived in Paris then


Here is the perfect place on Earth, where everybody obeys the law strictly! They don't want to be like that!
I love Paris :)


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Mook
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mook » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:48 pm

MTB wrote:
I fail to see the problem... there's always a space somewhere, even if you have to go another 500m.


So all the people getting parking fines are crazy? They don't want to park their car legally?



Seems so.

If you didn't notice, I live in Kruununhaka, which is in downtown Helsinki. I park my car on the street every evening. (I think the last ticket I got was mybe 4 years ago when I forgot to move my car when they were clearing the snow.)

Stop Whining.

MTB wrote: If you charge money for parking, then you are the administrator of the place


You only pay if you find a space, right? Like when you go into a shop, you can't buy things that are out of stock.
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Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:27 pm

MTB wrote:If you think that a paid parking lot cannot be public property, then any discussion from here is pointless. You don't "rent" a parking place, you pay a usage tax, which is mainly for administration of the property.


Depends on parking lot. There ARE private parking lots, in fact they form quite a large portion of parking lots.
Finnpark.fi for reference.

Furthermore, even if it is public property. What the @#$% is your malfunction here? To park, you pay. Right to park is based on clock on PARKING METER. Not official clock.


About the watches and stuff, when I got a fine at 18.59, I asked a simple thing (in an official complain): when was the last time you checked that your watch/camera's watch was inline with the official time, and do you have a paper proving it?


So in essence, you were being an £$€¤%&. For your knowledge, it is clock on the machine which matters. Not official clock. They check the time coming to lot, and go on based on that.

And, since you are not able to grasp it, they can't have paper on that. Because that would require there being some kind of official automate clock checker.


They didn't answer this question, they just rejected my complain with general considerations - probably they have a template. How do I know that the traffic warden didn't forget to adjust his watch according daylight saving? That would've been easy to cancel in court, but the procedure is so bureaucratic and eats you so much time that you give up trying. You need to pay, appeal in 2 weeks - I did, and then they reply in 6 weeks to your complain. And only then you can go to court. By the time you get the rejection to your complain, you forget completely about the fine. That's typically called Kafka bureaucracy. Usually, with this type of approach, people would get relaxed and try to respect the law only when they can be caught, not when it makes sense to respect it (take this last statement with moderation).


Can YOU prove that your car was not illegally parked?


MTB
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:54 pm

Right to park is based on clock on PARKING METER. Not official clock.


Are you by any chance a parking warden? Seems you have good qualities for that job!


Can YOU prove that your car was not illegally parked?


Again, you seem to have problems understanding the law system.


And, since you are not able to grasp it, they can't have paper on that. Because that would require there being some kind of official automate clock checker.


I am pretty sure there is an authority which checks this kind of things. Especially when you issue fines based on those. Again, going to court would've definitely solved the issue, but I didn't bother to loose that much time for 50 euros.


Some hints to concentrate on, the construction works in my area are simply horrible. The road is dirty all the time, there are heavy machines obstructing traffic whenever they feel like, heavy machines parked in the street overnight. It's a wild west out there, so no wonder that this was about to happen:

Police are investigating the collapse of a pedestrian bridge in Helsinki’s Laajasalo district as an aggravated case of endangering traffic safety and manslaughter.
One person died and three were injured when the bridge fell onto traffic on Monday afternoon. It collapsed after being struck by a lorry whose crane had been erroneously left in the upright position.
Involved in the accident were the truck, a van and a taxi transporting handicapped passengers. The driver of the van was crushed to death when the bridge disintegrated. The driver and a passenger in the taxi and the driver of the crane vehicle were all hospitalised.
The road where the accident took place, Laajasalontie, was closed until early Tuesday.
This was the third accident this autumn in Helsinki involving a vehicle with a crane in the upright position. In the previous mishaps, cranes snapped overhead wires powering trams, disrupting traffic for hours.


At least we are able to reinforce legal parking.


Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:53 pm

MTB wrote:Are you by any chance a parking warden? Seems you have good qualities for that job!


I fear you have bad qualities for everything which requires more than repetitive push of button.


Again, you seem to have problems understanding the law system.


You are the one who can't grasp that if you park illegally, you get punished.


I am pretty sure there is an authority which checks this kind of things. Especially when you issue fines based on those.


"I am pretty sure". Right. There is no authority who does it. None, zip, zilch, nada.
What there IS, is a bloody machine with CLOCK ON IT!

This machine prints out the CURRENT TIME ACCORDING TO IT into the ticket. And END TIME OF PERMITTED PARKING (this is simple calculation by adding amount of minutes paid to current time).


Again, going to court would've definitely solved the issue, but I didn't bother to loose that much time for 50 euros.


No, you would have wasted money by going to court where warden would tell that he/she checked the time from the automat, clock is there visible in LCD-screen, and then proceeded to check the cars.

And to make sure they get it right, when they find car which they plan to fine, they hang around for a while and see if anyone is around. Leading to situation where you DEFINITELY have overstaid your parking time.

Some hints to concentrate on, the construction works in my area are simply horrible. The road is dirty all the time, there are heavy machines obstructing traffic whenever they feel like, heavy machines parked in the street overnight. It's a wild west out there, so no wonder that this was about to happen:

Police are investigating the collapse of a pedestrian bridge in Helsinki’s Laajasalo district as an aggravated case of endangering traffic safety and manslaughter.
One person died and three were injured when the bridge fell onto traffic on Monday afternoon. It collapsed after being struck by a lorry whose crane had been erroneously left in the upright position.
Involved in the accident were the truck, a van and a taxi transporting handicapped passengers. The driver of the van was crushed to death when the bridge disintegrated. The driver and a passenger in the taxi and the driver of the crane vehicle were all hospitalised.
The road where the accident took place, Laajasalontie, was closed until early Tuesday.
This was the third accident this autumn in Helsinki involving a vehicle with a crane in the upright position. In the previous mishaps, cranes snapped overhead wires powering trams, disrupting traffic for hours.


At least we are able to reinforce legal parking.


Of course, there are rather foolish people who cannot grasp that illegal parking is handled by wardens, who do NOT involve themselves with cranes and other aspects of road laws. Which in turn fall into police, who rarely bother with parking tickets.

Thus, enforcing legal parking is NOT away from anything else.


How about you shut up about things you clearly have no idea of?


MTB
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:02 pm

"I am pretty sure". Right. There is no authority who does it. None, zip, zilch, nada.
What there IS, is a bloody machine with CLOCK ON IT!



Well,

I thought everybody with an iq more than 20 can find this on google: http://www.mikes.fi/Default.aspx?

I am sorry you were not able to find it.

How about you shut up about things you clearly have no idea of?


So that YOU can speak about things you clearly have no idea of?

I fear you have bad qualities for everything which requires more than repetitive push of button.


No worries!


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