Experiences: Parking Fines

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Pursuivant
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Pursuivant » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:56 pm

Ah, you need "Finnish thinking" on this: rules are meant to be obeyed, not interpreted, and definitely not interpreted in the favor of the defendant ;)


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Something wicked this way comes."

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

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jas_rho
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by jas_rho » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:57 pm

network_engineer wrote:
jas_rho wrote:
just hand wrote the time I parked on paper and thought it'd be ok. Well, so much for thinking :oops: I got a ticket because I didn't mark my time
Eh? The sentence contradicts. So, if I wrote a piece of clear paper my time of arrival (Saapumisaika hh:mm), it would not count?
No it doesn't contradict, you just misunderstand. You see I hand wrote the time on the paper, but the ticket I got was for NOT marking my time ie. not using the official parking disc. Of course I marked the time, but it was in an unaccepted manner so it didn't count, so it was the same as not marking my time at all.
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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:58 pm

@filecore: Er, read the post carefully, I have proof... in print and the warden herself.

@jas_rho: Ah okay!


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Pursuivant
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Pursuivant » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:02 pm

filecore wrote: I don't know if it's specified by law,
Actually it is, and yes, you can do one by yourself, but its legal only if you write the "rules of using" in the back
:lol:
Pysäköintikiekossa pitää olla etukansi ja sen takana pyörivä kiekko, joka näkyy kannessa olevan aukon läpi.

Pysäköintikiekon leveydeksi on määrätty 10–11 senttiä ja korkeudeksi 13–15 senttiä. Kulmat saavat olla pyöristettyjä.

Kiekon pitää olla ulkomuodoltaan ja väriltään tieliikennelaissa esitetyn mallin mukainen. Kiekko on sininen, mutta tarkkoja värikoodeja ei ole annettu. Kiekon takana pitää lukea selvästi erillään muusta tekstistä: "Pysäköintikiekon käyttövelvollisuus osoitetaan liikennemerkin lisäkilvellä, jossa on pysäköintikiekon kuva."

Pakollisia ovat myös tekstit: "Saapumisajaksi on merkittävä pysäköinnin alkamista seuraava tasa- tai puolitunti, siitä riippuen kumpi ajankohta on aikaisempi. Merkittyä saapumisaikaa ei saa pysäköintikiekon käyttövelvollisuuden voimassaoloaikana muuttaa", ja "Pysäköintikiekko on asetettava näkyvälle paikalle tuulilasin sisäpuolelle niin, että se on ulkoapäin luettavissa."

Tuulilasin sisäpuolella saa olla näkyvillä vain yksi kiekko kerrallaan.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:12 pm

network_engineer wrote:@filecore: Er, read the post carefully, I have proof... in print and the warden herself.
No. Being "a sane guy with a reasonable work-load" is no defence, and your proof of a café receipt is only proof that you were somewhere else, it doesn't relate directly to your car (as noted earlier). All it proves is that you weren't personally at the car; perhaps you loaned it to somebody else, perhaps you left it there overnight. Implication is not evidence.

As for the warden noting your time - is this official? Do you have the warden's name or signature? Or do you just have a piece of paper that "somebody" wrote the time on? Is it absolutely and completely unambiguous? Just because "the warden" wrote it, doesn't necessarily mean that it's in a format which is admissable as "proof".


MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:26 pm

network_engineer wrote:
Pursuivant wrote:The thing is you weren't fined for being overtime, you were fined for breaking the rule. ;)

Er, exactly the opposite. On a ticket with multiple options, this one is marked:

- Sallitun pysäköintinajan ylitys 2 hr
- kiekko klo 5:00


So, if I can prove that I parked there for an acceptable period of time,the fine should not apply, right?
Basically the point is that you told them your time of arrival by setting the time on the disc - it's not up to them to figure out if you've set it right or not, so as far as the law is concerned, you stayed overtime by your own admission. Besides, the fact that you didn't set the time correctly is an infraction by itself...


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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:36 pm

filecore wrote:... "proof".
Er, reading [or at least thoroughly] doesn't seem to be one of the core skills here, does it? See my first post.

- We have the traffic warden's number who jotted down the time we left.
- The time we paid the hospital receipt (+3 minutes) would tell when we arrived.
- My wife's time booked with the doctor.

Exactly, implication is never evidence - both ways, apply's to them too.
MikeD wrote:... by your own admission ... didn't set the time correctly is an infraction by itself...
- The fact is that I did not get the fine for not setting the time correctly.
- I got the fine for overstaying. And that is the point I am refuting.

If they did actually send me a fine for not setting the disc correctly, I would not argue that at all. Do consider reading the post thoroughly, it might give you a better perspective.


MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:52 pm

network_engineer wrote:
MikeD wrote:... by your own admission ... didn't set the time correctly is an infraction by itself...
- The fact is that I did not get the fine for not setting the time correctly.
- I got the fine for overstaying. And that is the point I am refuting.

If they did actually send me a fine for not setting the disc correctly, I would not argue that at all. Do consider reading the post thoroughly, it might give you a better perspective.
If you stayed for more than four hours from the time you set on the disc, legally speaking you did overstay even if in reality you didn't. That's all that matters. As for perspective, I have plenty when it comes to matters like this... this case seems clear-cut to me since there's no disputing that you broke the rules. Besides, if they cancel the fine you got and send you a new one with the tick in the correct box, what exactly will you have accomplished? Is it somehow less humiliating to be fined for setting the disc wrong than actually exceeding the allowed time?


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:57 pm

MikeD wrote:Besides, if they cancel the fine you got and send you a new one with the tick in the correct box, what exactly will you have accomplished? Is it somehow less humiliating to be fined for setting the disc wrong than actually exceeding the allowed time?
A moral victory? A point of principle? Is there a financial variance between the fine they're asking you to pay and the fine you ought to pay?

Personally, I'd just pay it and then go on with my life. You can't fight Finnish red tape! :beer_yum:


Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:02 pm

network_engineer wrote: Er, reading [or at least thoroughly] doesn't seem to be one of the core skills here, does it? See my first post.
Are you really an engineer? Because you appear to have serious issues grasping what is the issue here.
- We have the traffic warden's number who jotted down the time we left.
Time you LEFT. At this point your fine already exists so it is irrelevant if you left at that minute or 20 hours from it.
- The time we paid the hospital receipt (+3 minutes) would tell when we arrived.
It ONLY tells when you paid at the hospital. It has nothing to do with your car.
- My wife's time booked with the doctor.
Again, it in no way is proof that your car was not there 5 hours before that time. You and your wife could, if you had odd perversion for hospitals, have spent last few hours wandering up and down the aisles of the hospital.
Exactly, implication is never evidence - both ways, apply's to them too.
Evidence is proof. You have implications, they have proof. Time set on your parking disc. That is proof. All you have is series of flimsy excuses which do not prove in any way anything.
If they did actually send me a fine for not setting the disc correctly, I would not argue that at all. Do consider reading the post thoroughly, it might give you a better perspective.
Consider this properly.

WHATEVER you put in that disc, IS your hour of arrival. If you put it too early, you are overstaying. If you put it too late, you are trying to cheat. Both ways you are fined.


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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mölkky-Fan » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:45 pm

OK, this is going on a bit now... it is quite clear that you cannot prove when you arrived (unless you in the meantime get your hands on video from the car park, or receive a speeding ticket from just before you arrived at the car park), but if you feel hard done by then give it a go! Personally I guess you should just pay, and next time you will remember to set your clock thingy correctly.

Sometimes they will give you the benefit of the doubt... mostly not. But I am interested to see if they do let you off.

On the negative side you are a thieving, cheating, dishonest foreigner and not to be trusted! On the positive side maybe they cannot understand your letter in English and just send you the fine back cancelled!
On the realistic side you will probably get fined because you did not set your clock right. On the surrealistic side you will probably be let off because goldfish do not have fingers.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.


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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:55 pm

Tiwaz wrote:serious issues grasping what is the issue here.
Really Tiwaz? Let's see!
Tiwaz wrote:Time you LEFT. At this point your fine already exists so it is irrelevant if you left at that minute or 20 hours from it.
Talk about grasping logic! The relevancy is the total time the car was there in the parking lot. See next point. The parking warden was near the exit and she would be able to confirm that at that point of time we left. The total allowed parking time is 4 hours. So, if we are being fined for being overtime and if I can prove that I have been there for only 1½ half, that is relevant to the matter.
It ONLY tells when you paid at the hospital. It has nothing to do with your car.... odd perversion for hospitals...
You could argue that, but Finnish law DOES allow for reasonable arguments - proved time and again in the courts of law. Reasonable point of view states that if the time on the receipt is 09:23, it is reasonable to assume that the person would have arrived close to the appointment time. So, even if one were to [because of some odd "perversion"] roll over the streets and take 15 minutes to destination, you can still calculate an estimated time of arrival.
- My wife's time booked with the doctor.
Merely supports our reason for being there and clarifies a lack of "odd perversions".
Evidence is proof. You have implications, they have proof.
Er, receipts are printed with a time stamp, and that is proof. Hard and fast.
- Credit card receipt - proof of arrival.
- Warden's note: Proof of departure.

Don't even start arguing about logic. Read the whole thread - properly first.

... negative side you are a thieving, cheating, dishonest foreigner and not to be trusted ...
... letter in English

As regards being a thieving foreigner etc, you have some audacity! :evil: I said it quite clearly, I am trying to get a clearer understanding. And I am following a process of readdressal as provided for BY LAW! And no, the letter is NOT in English, it is in Finnish and to the point!
Last edited by network_engineer on Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.


umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:49 pm

Haven't you ever heard of the famous Hollywood quote "Engine is still warm John, the madafaka must have got here just ahead of us!!" You should have asked the wardens jot down the engine temperature as well... :ochesey:


MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:20 pm

network_engineer wrote: The relevancy is the total time the car was there in the parking lot. See next point. The parking warden was near the exit and she would be able to confirm that at that point of time we left. The total allowed parking time is 4 hours. So, if we are being fined for being overtime and if I can prove that I have been there for only 1½ half, that is relevant to the matter.
No it is not. The four hours starts from the time indicated on the disc. It's not that hard to understand, is it? If the disc said 5:00 and you hadn't left by 9:00, that's overtime. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you were there only for four minutes, for crying out loud!


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:25 pm

MikeD wrote:
network_engineer wrote: The relevancy is the total time the car was there in the parking lot. See next point. The parking warden was near the exit and she would be able to confirm that at that point of time we left. The total allowed parking time is 4 hours. So, if we are being fined for being overtime and if I can prove that I have been there for only 1½ half, that is relevant to the matter.
No it is not. The four hours starts from the time indicated on the disc. It's not that hard to understand, is it? If the disc said 5:00 and you hadn't left by 9:00, that's overtime. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if you were there only for four minutes, for crying out loud!
Extra emphasis added. If it's four hours, by the disc, and you set the disc to demonstrate that you've been there for at least four hours, then regardless of how long you've been there in reality, you've violated the terms of the parking agreement by stating, with your own disc, that you have been there for more than four hours! The disc is the only evidence that is relevant to the issue.


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