Experiences: Parking Fines

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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:59 pm

The disc is the only evidence that is relevant to the issue
Geez! Congrats though! I wonder how you finally got even close to the idea!

Here's the issue in the simplest of terms: The fine clearly states that the fine is for parking beyond the allowed "limit" (not the period). I am refuting that with proof thatI have not parked beyond the allowed period. The question is what you mentioned: Is the disc the only accepted form of evidence of the period. Granted, yes, it is the simplest and the usual indication.



Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:07 pm

network_engineer wrote:Geez! Congrats though! I wonder how you finally got even close to the idea!
Ah, now I see why you're making such wonderful progress with the parking authorities.


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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:17 pm

You can't fight Finnish red tape!
wonderful progress with the parking authorities
That is your opinion! And very different from my experience - multiple times.


Mustikka poika
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Mustikka poika » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:57 pm

I thnk it depends more on the person who is incharge there.

I have got two parking tickets till now, but they were 40 euros not 30. First was waived on appeal even though I didn't have a very solid reason or excuse.
Second time it was quite a nonsense penalty, quite complicated situation, they should have waived it but they didn't. My appeal was rejected as well, but anyway now my second appeal is in some office (don't remeber the name some kind of "oikeus")


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filecore
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:17 pm

Actually, and on a more serious note, I do have an encouraging story to tell. A few years back I noticed that for the last year or two, my bank had been making small, regular charges. At first I thought it was for a credit card or something, but when I looked closer, I realised they were making card charges for a feature that I shouldn't have been paying for. It was something like 7 euros per month, over a couple of years - quite a lot of money! So, naturally, I complained. At first they blew me off, and said "sorry about that, we'll stop the charges, but there's not much we can do about what's already gone". That wasn't good enough, since it was their error.

So, I wrote a formal letter to the bank and demanded that they do something more proactive about it. They offered to refund a portion of the fees - I don't recall what, but it was something ridiculous like 20% of the total, and that was "all they could do". I laughed, and then wrote another letter asking if they would kindly give me the contact details for the independent ombundsman that oversees their banking operations, so that I could make a formal complaint. Magically, all the fees were returned to my account a couple of days later!

Although I'm still unsure about the rightness of the claim in the OP's parking ticket story, it does at least go to show that, if you persevere and right is on your side, you will eventually win... even against stubborn* Finnish bureaucracy.

* we're not stubborn, we just demonstrate sisu!


jas_rho
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by jas_rho » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:59 am

To the OP: I also wanna know how this turns out... stop waiting for comments and tips from here and go get that taken care of :) We wanna know what they say! Good luck! (PS- You are lucky though it's only 30€)
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Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:13 am

network_engineer wrote: Talk about grasping logic! The relevancy is the total time the car was there in the parking lot. See next point. The parking warden was near the exit and she would be able to confirm that at that point of time we left. The total allowed parking time is 4 hours. So, if we are being fined for being overtime and if I can prove that I have been there for only 1½ half, that is relevant to the matter.
How does your credit card slip prove your car was not there?
Is your credit card somehow glued to top of your car? If not, it proves nothing regarding your car.
You could argue that, but Finnish law DOES allow for reasonable arguments - proved time and again in the courts of law. Reasonable point of view states that if the time on the receipt is 09:23, it is reasonable to assume that the person would have arrived close to the appointment time. So, even if one were to [because of some odd "perversion"] roll over the streets and take 15 minutes to destination, you can still calculate an estimated time of arrival.
And what matters is arrival time on the disc.

Odds are that police will void that ticket just to get rid of you, because right now you are costing this nation far more money than 30 euros. Whining about your OWN failure to set time on the disc properly.

You should just pay the fine and in the future use the disc properly.

Er, receipts are printed with a time stamp, and that is proof. Hard and fast.
- Credit card receipt - proof of arrival.
- Warden's note: Proof of departure.
Credit card, unless permanently attached to card, is no proof of car not being there.
Don't even start arguing about logic. Read the whole thread - properly first.
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with term logic.


umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:14 am

Tiwaz wrote: Odds are that police will void that ticket just to get rid of you, because right now you are costing this nation far more money than 30 euros. [...]
You should just pay the fine and in the future use the disc properly.
As P mentioned before "Finnish thinking" on similar issues is: rules are meant to be obeyed, not interpreted, and definitely not interpreted in the favor of the defendant which in my opinion is strongly effected by Learned Helplessness Theory against stubborn Finnish bureaucracy.

And here is an experiment somehow related to Learned Helplessness: http://www.crypticide.com/dropsafe/article/1928

@OP: You are trying to reach that banana! :lol:

BTW, you can cost as much as you would to the nation to defend your right against stupid bureaucracy, I fully support you ;)


Tiwaz
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Tiwaz » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:04 pm

umit wrote:As P mentioned before "Finnish thinking" on similar issues is: rules are meant to be obeyed, not interpreted, and definitely not interpreted in the favor of the defendant which in my opinion is strongly effected by Learned Helplessness Theory against stubborn Finnish bureaucracy.

And here is an experiment somehow related to Learned Helplessness: http://www.crypticide.com/dropsafe/article/1928
Actually, it is properly called taking responsibility for your own damn actions. Trait I wish would be more common around the world.
BTW, you can cost as much as you would to the nation to defend your right against stupid bureaucracy, I fully support you ;)

You might want to read what OP has stated.

He is not defending anything but some odd right to be stupid. HE put in wrong time in the disc, nobody else.
ONLY person who has done ANYTHING wrong is OP, but setting wrong time.

People writing fines do not go around guessing if this guy is overstaying or just plain careless.

But I guess some people assume that there is some kind of right not to have consequences for your actions and failures.


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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:28 pm

To a few here (I am not keen on point blank insults - not my nature):

I fail to see some nonsensical arguments. How about I point it out in the simplest terms possible:
  • - The primary intent as regards parking signs is to ensure usage of the parking spaces as intended, covered either by costs or by time, neither or both.
  • - In case of free parking guided by a time base, it must be ensured that the parking space is not overused by long-term parking.
  • - The general instrument used to indicate period of usage is the parking disc.
  • - The question I have put to the authorities is simply this: Is the disc the only and final means to indicate the used (parking) period. Or are they willing to cancel the fine based on proof.
Some constantly failed to read what I wrote (which is why I said careful reading does not seem to be part of core skills). Finnish law (whether you like it or not) DOES allow for a sense of reasonability in the arguments. Seen it demonstrated three times, in the administrative procedures. So, in that sense, my credit card does NOT need to be tapered to the car. It can be assumed in a reasonable manner that the driver arrived in his/her car close to the appointment time and paid the hospital fee using a card, which can indicate an approximate time of arrival.

If they come back to me and the final decision is that the parking disc is the only means to indicate the period used and that none other are accepted, I will happily pay the fine. Getting clarity on a matter is a process PROVIDED BY LAW and one that keeps the mechanism clean and clear! And another thing: Unless you want your statements back with interest, let me clarify once more: at no point am I being negative towards the authorities, nor complaining - nor am I disowning my own actions! In fact, my letter says that very clearly.

Gosh!
Last edited by network_engineer on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.


jtammilehto
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by jtammilehto » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:39 pm

You do seem to be forgetting that the only reasonable way to enforce the parking regulations is to use a meter or a disc - or even cellphone systems.

The economics of the system doesn't really allow for everyone to park willy-nilly and leave the proof of when they parked to be researched via credit card receipts from hospitals - appointment times, possible doctor reports that might reveal times, etc.


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network_engineer
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by network_engineer » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:53 pm

jtammilehto wrote: The economics of the system doesn't really allow for everyone to park willy-nilly and leave the proof of when they parked to be researched via credit card receipts from hospitals - appointment times, possible doctor reports that might reveal times, etc.
I completely agree... and I don't fight that. Again, I repeat: I am just asking them if they would be willing to accept what I have stated as proof for this time (and not as the norm) as opposed to the general use of the disc. Very clearly in my letter I state that I forgot to set it correctly, but that I can prove my usage time. Would they accept that or not. That's all.


umit
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by umit » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:32 pm

Tiwaz wrote:...He is not defending anything but some odd right to be stupid. HE put in wrong time in the disc, nobody else.
ONLY person who has done ANYTHING wrong is OP, but setting wrong time.

People writing fines do not go around guessing if this guy is overstaying or just plain careless.

But I guess some people assume that there is some kind of right not to have consequences for your actions and failures.
Sometimes people do carelessness and mistakes (both the authorities and citizens). And most of the time there is a chance to correct that mistake. How many of us never made a mistake like paying the same bill twice or transfer money to wrong account??? What would you do then??? "Oh, this is my stupidity and I have to accept the consequences of my actions"

Another example: Let's say OP parked his car in a payment zone, took the receipt from the ticket machine, but forgot to put it inside the windshield... When he came back he found the 40e ticket under the wiper... I remember reading somewhere on this forum that, in that situation if you take the ticket and the receipt they cancel it. So, what is the difference, as long as he can prove it???

As for the evidence he has one concrete evidence (his wife as a witness) and several circumstantial evidences... I think it is the bureaucratic stupidity if they insist not to cancel that ticket and continue to waste nation's resources :evil:


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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:53 pm

umit wrote:Another example: Let's say OP parked his car in a payment zone, took the receipt from the ticket machine, but forgot to put it inside the windshield... When he came back he found the 40e ticket under the wiper... I remember reading somewhere on this forum that, in that situation if you take the ticket and the receipt they cancel it. So, what is the difference, as long as he can prove it???
They might cancel or not, as it is required to put the stub to the window. Only case where they are certain to to cancel is if you are ticketed from not having the stub on motorcycle.
umit wrote:As for the evidence he has one concrete evidence (his wife as a witness) and several circumstantial evidences... I think it is the bureaucratic stupidity if they insist not to cancel that ticket and continue to waste nation's resources :evil:
I think it is bureaucratic stupidity, to not put the costs where they are due. Someone wasting their time should pay for the time wasted. The rules of parking are fairly simple: put disk to nearest half/full hour (or pay for some time), leave before indicated time has gone. Op did the latter, but not the first and is now penalized for that.
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MikeD
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Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:12 pm

umit wrote:Sometimes people do carelessness and mistakes (both the authorities and citizens). And most of the time there is a chance to correct that mistake. How many of us never made a mistake like paying the same bill twice or transfer money to wrong account??? What would you do then??? "Oh, this is my stupidity and I have to accept the consequences of my actions"
Tell me, do you think that if I park in a time-limited zone and then "forget" to move my car before the time is up, I should not be fined? If not, how is it any different from the op's situation? And if there is no need to obey the rules in case you "make a mistake" why have rules in the first place? (And yes, I think there should be a penalty fee for sorting out payments that you messed up, because otherwise we all (=i.e. other customers) pay for the time it takes to sort out your error. And yes, I'd be happy to pay that if I ever were careless enough to do something like that.


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