Experiences: Parking Fines

Where to buy? Where can I find? How do I? Getting started.
Post Reply
MTB
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Because one is your choice and one isn't. You don't decide how often you get pulled in to a random breath test, but you do decide how often you park illegally. Parking fines are imposed to deter people from parking where they should not. In your case the message does not seem to be getting through.
As people who actually drive a car in Finland know, when there is a breath test, it is for everybody (taxi, bus, etc.). It is not random. There are way to seldom breath tests comparing to parking tests, when the first is significantly more dangerous for people and society, that was the statement.

And my conclusion, whether correct or not, is that those tests are money-driven and not law enforcement driven.
You don't decide how often you get pulled in to a random breath test, but you do decide how often you park illegally.
You lost me here, if this wasn't to be an intended sophism.

You decide yourself if you drink and drive or you park your car illegally.
You don't decide yourself when and how often you are checked for alcohol and wrong parking.



Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Sponsor:

Finland Forum Ad-O-Matic
 

User avatar
filecore
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:37 am

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by filecore » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:58 pm

MTB wrote:
You don't decide how often you get pulled in to a random breath test, but you do decide how often you park illegally.
You lost me here, if this wasn't to be an intended sophism.

You decide yourself if you drink and drive or you park your car illegally.
You don't decide yourself when and how often you are checked for alcohol and wrong parking.
I see the miscommunication here. Allow me to elucidate.

You (MTB) are talking about real-life breath tests (with your quoted average of one test in three years). The other poster, whose TLA I have forgotten, is referring to random breath tests generally. So:

1. You decide whether you drink and drive or not.
2. You cannot control the occurrence of breath tests.
3. You decide whether you park illegally or not.
4. You cannot control the occurrence of parking inspections.

I think we can all agree on these points. However, other poster's point was that you can't control the random breath tests, regardless of whether you drink-drive or not, but that you can control parking inspections by simply not parking illegally. Thus, you can ensure a 100% no-ticket rate for parking if you only park in designated legal parking areas, whereas you can never guarantee a 100% no-test rate for breath tests because they can happen anywhere and at any time. This is the difference between breath tests and parking inspections. All clear now?


MikeD
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:54 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:21 pm

MTB wrote:3. I was once parked with half of the car before the sign, and half after the sign. Some flexibility never hurts and this could have been overlooked by parking wardens, but I got the fine. No issue until here. After my car, there were other 2 cars without a fine, with the last one blocking the tram railway, and the tram waiting. Tough luck. I went away with the fine, the tram stayed.
I once wondered why there was a no parking zone on the beginning of a side street (for 15 meters or so), after which parking was allowed. It seemed to me that there would be no harm in someone parking on that restriced section. Then, once I happened to walk past as a delivery truck was trying to negotiate the intersection, needing all the available space. If someone had parked even half their car illegally, the truck would not have been able to make the turn. In other words, the restrictions are not random, even though for someone driving a normal car they might occasionally seem that way.
MTB wrote: 5. How is possible that a private company is issuing parking fines?
They're not. You're entering a contract by parking into a private area, and if you neglect to follow the terms of that contract, you're issued an administrative fee. Quite right if you ask me, I'm completely sick of people parking their cars where they're not supposed to. There's new legislation on this coming in the near future, hopefully they're able to find a proper solution.
MTB wrote:6. There was some official from municipality saying in a newspaper that parking fines are an important source of income for them, and they pay their (parking warden) salaries out of that. This is very wrong, as in any law systems it is specified that the purpose of fines is coercive, and not to raise money for the budget or pay salaries. Because main concern of a traffic warden should be reinforcing the meaning of the law, and not the form it is written. For example, what if (theoretical example) my wheel is 1 cm over the painted stripe on the ground? As long as the other car can park safely and doesn't complain or is not impeded in any way, then a fine should not be given. If car is one centimeter over the line and some other person complains, then a fine should be given.
What he meant is that the income from parking fines is greater than the expense from parking enforcement. The money is by no means earmarked for any particular purpose.
MTB wrote:7. How come I am checked for drunk driving once every 3 years, but I get 3 parking fines per year? :mrgreen: And then occasionally there are some gun incidents in schools and supermarkets, but no worries, most of the people parked their car correctly when they went shooting. Unfortunately this activity doesn't pay off, as criminals usually don't pay their fines, so not enough budget raised for salaries.
The police have no reason to suspect you're drunk unless you give them that. The parking wardens have no reason to write you a fine unless you give them that.


MTB
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:39 pm

3. I generally considered sufficient proof if somebody is complaining about your parking, and of course the rules are on his side, you should get a fine. If the truck can still get out within a decent time, and without doing a lot of extra maneuvers, and the driver does not call the police/parking wardens, you should not get fined for leaving your car 1 or 2 meters over the sign. I ask for a little judgement of the situation, given the fact that there is lack of parking places almost everywhere - not blindly obeying the law.

5. There was a decision from Finnish Supreme Court if it is constitutional or not not let private companies to issue fines on public domain (ie Esplanadi for
example). It is about outsourcing the parking warden from municipality to private companies -> that translates to seeking for profit on this activity.


7. I got your points. Though, it seemed (and it subjectively still seems) to me that the checking of particularly parking infringements is way over other types of random checks. I would like to see, if anybody has a link, an activity report of the traffic wardens, and what was their efficiency - not how much money they raised, but how much illegal parking has decreased year on year. Because I suppose this is their ultimate purpose: to eradicate illegal parking.


MikeD
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:54 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:11 pm

MTB wrote:3. I generally considered sufficient proof if somebody is complaining about your parking, and of course the rules are on his side, you should get a fine. If the truck can still get out within a decent time, and without doing a lot of extra maneuvers, and the driver does not call the police/parking wardens, you should not get fined for leaving your car 1 or 2 meters over the sign. I ask for a little judgement of the situation, given the fact that there is lack of parking places almost everywhere - not blindly obeying the law.
Most people would be annoyed if an illegally parked car was making their life more difficult, but very few would be annoyed enough to call the cops. Still, my view is that you park either legally or illegally and there's no middle ground. Park illegally and you face the possiblity of a fine. Simple and fair, as legislation should be. I've gotten a couple of parking fines myself back when I'd just gotten my licence. On both occasions I had parked illegally (not causing any harm to anyone, but illegally nevertheless), so I just paid up and have avoided parking illegally ever since, even if it means that I might occasionally have to walk for a bit (the horror!). Not that difficult, let me assure you.
MTB wrote: 5. There was a decision from Finnish Supreme Court if it is constitutional or not not let private companies to issue fines on public domain (ie Esplanadi for
example). It is about outsourcing the parking warden from municipality to private companies -> that translates to seeking for profit on this activity.
I really don't see a difference (legal, moral or otherwise) in whether the salary of the person issuing the fine is paid for by the municipality or a business that the municipality has hired to do the job, as long as they're qualified and work within the limits set by the law. Neither do I see a problem with someone possibly making a profit. It's your choice whether you want to support their business or not.
MTB wrote:7. I got your points. Though, it seemed (and it subjectively still seems) to me that the checking of particularly parking infringements is way over other types of random checks. I would like to see, if anybody has a link, an activity report of the traffic wardens, and what was their efficiency - not how much money they raised, but how much illegal parking has decreased year on year. Because I suppose this is their ultimate purpose: to eradicate illegal parking.
Many parking wardens have routes that they follow, checking certain locations several times a day. That's hardly random. As for efficiency, the question should be "How much more illegal parking would there be if there were no traffic wardens?"


DMC
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:17 am

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by DMC » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:25 pm

MTB wrote:If the truck can still get out within a decent time, and without doing a lot of extra maneuvers, and the driver does not call the police/parking wardens, you should not get fined for leaving your car 1 or 2 meters over the sign.
If that truck is a fire truck on its way to stop your house burning you might consider that any delay, and any extra manouvers, due to an illegally parked car is reason enough for fines to discourage such parking. I guess few people, if any, really like parking restrictions but they are generally there for a reason.
5. There was a decision from Finnish Supreme Court if it is constitutional or not not let private companies to issue fines on public domain (ie Esplanadi for example). It is about outsourcing the parking warden from municipality to private companies -> that translates to seeking for profit on this activity.
Which way did the Supreme Court decision go? I don't regard outsourcing as profit-seeking so much as cost-saving. There is a difference, and I would want all councils to do all their work, including controlling parking, as cheaply as possible.
7. I would like to see, if anybody has a link, an activity report of the traffic wardens, and what was their efficiency - not how much money they raised, but how much illegal parking has decreased year on year. Because I suppose this is their ultimate purpose: to eradicate illegal parking.
I don't have such a link but I have seen some such data, a long time ago in the UK when I was involved in a project to determine how many parking wardens a town needed. It was clear then and probably still true now that such data is difficult to collect and almost impossible to interpret. It seems clear that the presence of wardens reduces illegal parking, but to accurately quantify that reduction falls into the realm of lies, damned lies and statistics. The figures can show whatever you wish to find.


MTB
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:35 pm

Many parking wardens have routes that they follow, checking certain locations several times a day. That's hardly random. As for efficiency, the question should be "How much more illegal parking would there be if there were no traffic wardens?"
Or what can we actually do in order to stop illegal parking, provided that people don't generally have illegal parking between their main hobbies. It would be a fair assumption that they invest all the money they get from fines (-expenses) in programs for stopping illegal parking, even if this might mean, God forbid, more parking places? I would really like to see that kind of law, that parking wardens unit cannot make profit - they cover their expenses, pay the normal taxes to the state, and all the extra goes into facilitating legal parking, and not on the municipality budget.

I've seen another invention now, there are these "club car" reserved parking spaces, even though they are most of the time free, it is forbidden to park there. So the municipality rented them away to some private car-sharing company, even though they are public space. Must say I am not happy at all when I see that space free and I need to go round to find for a spot.
It seems clear that the presence of wardens reduces illegal parking, but to accurately quantify that reduction falls into the realm of lies, damned lies and statistics
If the number (not value) of total fines increases from year to year, in my opinion, it is a sign that issuing fines doesn't actually prevent illegal parking (ok they will prevent a certain number of people to park illegally, but you cannot go over that by just issuing more and more fines and hiring more and more people).


User avatar
rinso
Posts: 3689
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:22 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by rinso » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:22 pm

Why are you so obsessed with illegal parking?
For a number of reasons there are places where you cannot park. If you do there will be a reaction.
If you have good arguments why the parking regime is wrong, you should talk to the policy makers. Or run for a seat in the city counsel and make the policy yourself. Now you're only whining in a place where nobody gives a damn.
you should not get fined for leaving your car 1 or 2 meters over the sign.
Somebody else decided on the correct spot for the no-parking sign, not you. He/she probably had other concerns in mind than your impatience to find a parking spot. And besides, if they followed your reasoning, everybody would park a few meters over the sign and you still wouldn't find a parking spot.


MikeD
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:54 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MikeD » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:42 pm

MTB wrote:
Many parking wardens have routes that they follow, checking certain locations several times a day. That's hardly random. As for efficiency, the question should be "How much more illegal parking would there be if there were no traffic wardens?"
Or what can we actually do in order to stop illegal parking, provided that people don't generally have illegal parking between their main hobbies. It would be a fair assumption that they invest all the money they get from fines (-expenses) in programs for stopping illegal parking, even if this might mean, God forbid, more parking places? I would really like to see that kind of law, that parking wardens unit cannot make profit - they cover their expenses, pay the normal taxes to the state, and all the extra goes into facilitating legal parking, and not on the municipality budget.

I've seen another invention now, there are these "club car" reserved parking spaces, even though they are most of the time free, it is forbidden to park there. So the municipality rented them away to some private car-sharing company, even though they are public space. Must say I am not happy at all when I see that space free and I need to go round to find for a spot.
Well, the decision of whether or not build new parking spaces (or rent space to the likes of city car club) is, in the end, made by the people we choose to vote for in the municipal elections, so apparently the decisions should represent the view of the majority of the population. Of course, if you don't have a parking space at your home that's not really the taxpayers' problem to begin with. As for money from a certain source being earmarked for a particular purpose, I don't think I've ever heard of that being done in Finland...


DMC
Posts: 1232
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:17 am

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by DMC » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:08 pm

MTB wrote:If the number (not value) of total fines increases from year to year, in my opinion, it is a sign that issuing fines doesn't actually prevent illegal parking
Don't you think it is also important to take other factors into account, such as:
- Did the wardens just get better at their job?
- Were the wardens more effectively deployed?
- Were more wardens working?
- Did parking restriction or other changes mean less non-productive travelling time between streets the wardens had to check?
- Did the number of available legal parking places change?
- Were there more cars in the area?
You cannot rely on a single metric such as number of fines issued when that can be a result of many different influences.
Anyway, why worry about it? Why not just park legally?


MTB
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:08 pm

rinso wrote:Why are you so obsessed with illegal parking?
For a number of reasons there are places where you cannot park. If you do there will be a reaction.
If you have good arguments why the parking regime is wrong, you should talk to the policy makers. Or run for a seat in the city counsel and make the policy yourself. Now you're only whining in a place where nobody gives a damn.
Aparently I didn't start the topic (which incidentaly is called experiences about parking fines), so there might be a few other people. Secondly, there are foreigners coming here. Some of them bring their cars also. A bit of information doesn't hurt anybody, on the contrary, I think I help them in making the right decision about how to park, by showing how the system is. It's ok to be proud of it, and it's also ok to criticize, in my opinion.


AldenG
Posts: 3334
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by AldenG » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:36 pm

CNN ran a story the other day on a website for people fed up with someone else's parking:

YPLAA

There you can download do-it-yourself citations or just enjoy the gallery.

There are photos from around the world.

Me, now I'm tempted to think up and pose my jalopies for some truly outrageous parking photos.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


Upphew
Posts: 9960
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 pm
Location: Lappeenranta

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Upphew » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm

MTB wrote:A bit of information doesn't hurt anybody, on the contrary, I think I help them in making the right decision about how to park, by showing how the system is. It's ok to be proud of it, and it's also ok to criticize, in my opinion.
Right!

Now don't let me start to criticize your parking habits...
http://google.com http://translate.google.com http://urbandictionary.com
Visa is for visiting, Residence Permit for residing.


MTB
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:16 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by MTB » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:39 pm

You don't actually know my parking habbits. I park more than 2 or 3 times a year when I get those fines. At least 365 times per year! :D


Rip
Posts: 5583
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Experiences: Parking Fines

Post by Rip » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:11 am

DMC wrote: Which way did the Supreme Court decision go? I don't regard outsourcing as profit-seeking so much as cost-saving. There is a difference, and I would want all councils to do all their work, including controlling parking, as cheaply as possible.
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/oikeus/kko/kko/2010/20100023

("på svenska" and Google translate from Swedish to English might work for those who can't understand Finnish)

Basically the court sided with the parking company. As such the job of the parking wardens can't be legally outsourced, however the parking company operating principle where they set up large boards (having made a contract with the land owner) stating the condition under which you are allowed to park on that piece of land, and containing the sentences "you'll be charged a fee of 40€ if you park here in violation of these terms" and "by parking here you accept these terms" was found valid under Finnish law. Although it mimics it in effect, the legal basis is not the same as under which municipal parking wardens work, but the private contractual law.


Post Reply