Tori.fi fraud and police response

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TeppoKroatialainen
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by TeppoKroatialainen » Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:24 pm

can i sak you HOW did that person fraud you?
Did you send the money and they didn't send the item or?

Bike tefts are a whooooole diferent topic and it seems like everywhere they have problems with that and different way of tray to handle it, but i wont go into that now.



Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:18 pm

Upphew wrote:
Rosamunda wrote:....many years ago...

But surely, nowadays it should be relatively simple to conceal an RFID or even a simple bar code or microchip (like cats and dogs) somewhere in a bike. I'm surprised nobody has come up with some kind of app/service that would help people to trace, or at least prove ownership of, their bikes.
Bikes have VINs too and police asks for it when you report theft. I'm not sure if I have mine written down anywhere...

RFID tags would be nice, they would be easily scannable from distance. Thieves could probably fry them, but it would help. My newest one talks BT and can inform other bikes about its whereabouts if reported stolen. Dunno if that works, especially as there aren't that many of those bikes in Finland. But the technology is coming.
In Holland, there is a bike with a find my bike function for sale, if it get stolen, and not found, you get a new one. will search for the links later, but it has BT and gps, it is not a cheap bike 8)

link: https://www.vanmoof.com/en_fi/bikes/smart-straight
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007
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by 007 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:04 am

Upphew wrote:
007 wrote:
007 wrote:My cycle got stolen yesterday. And, police won't go a thing. Police force is tremendously overstreched lat
The bike is either on sale/sold in tori/huuto/fb, stripped of components or just laying in some ditch. What could police do even if they had manpower?
My bike is stolen and I get a snide remark. :x Of course, police can do a lot if possible. I understand that police has limited resources and cannot probably do much because of that, but why do you think that they won't do a thing about bike theft if they have manpower and other resources. After all, their credibility is on line when people fear for their properties and believe that police cannot do a thing about it.

""Snide remark my ass. I've lost my share of bikes. Not lately, but about 20000mk worth of them. One was found. Couple were never seen again, probably sold for components or were later recovered in drug bust or something. Regardless, I got something from insurance and after that it might have gone a bit hairy if the bike(s) were found.

What police could do? Drive eyes peeled on people driving bikes and stop them? Bust druggies on hunch? Those are not likely to happen and easily identified bikes are not likely to be seen driven around or parked on sight. Even if police had double the manpower, I can't imagine them doing anything differently about stolen bikes.""

If you cannot think of the ways police can do to retrieve the stolen bikes, that's your opinion but I don't need to hear that tone of yours. Not really.

And, why the heck police should be on patrol for stolen bikes? There are lots of bikes thrown over on bushes. People can be encourged to report those with some award system. Police can also make their presence felt online where used bikes are bought and sold. Police can also provide crime registry for insurance bit faster than 2 weeks..Police can also crack down organized gangs...there's many ways that police can do to alleviate this growing problem..and, i am not trying to be smart here by pointing out what police can do to prevent bikes from being stolen or to retrieve them nor to comfort the victims. I am sure they already do what they can...

So, my point is not that police won't do a thing but that as a victim, i have nowhere to turn to...and in such cases, I certainly don't need to hear some smartass comment like what police could do since my bike might have ended up deserted somewhere afar or on facebook etc.

By the way, I have had 5 bikes stolen over the last 4 years. At one incident, I found my stolen bike parked in front of a house. I called the police to catch the thief but police was of the opinion that if i had found my lost bike, i should just take it and go home....i have had my fair share of experiences with police as a victim...
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:19 am

Whauw,

What a moaning about fraud an bike theft and the police not doing anything... did everybody live under a rock the last 1000 years? Police is too busy and too undermanned solving violence crimes and grand theft grimes, drug crimes, traffic speed control, harassing foreign looking people for IDs and residence permits...whatever...this is very ancient news and there is not much they can do.
What you can do is file it at the police and ask a copy of the filing for insurance purposes, then start a civil case for discovery of the IP address used at tori.fi, get the account holder information from the ISP and visit the address with a couple of friends from your moterbike club :lol: :lol: :lol:
But legally there is nothing you can do because an IP address is not a person (even not in Finland) so that is why the police cannot do anything either. You might have more luck with the bank account information though (legal wise). But all this cost you more money than it is probably worth it.

I have lived in Amsterdam for a while, there your bike lock is more expensive than your bike, otherwise your bike will be stolen for sure. I have learned after a few "lost" bikes to buy a big lock, get an old bike and always park it next to a nicer bike with a worse lock than mine... never had my bike stolen again.

About fraud on the internet, golden rules: get an address for pick up first, tell later you changed your mind and have them send it to you (if you want to take the risk) but only if you really can not pick it up and pay cash.
Good thing to try as a foreigner: you want to pay with your foreign bank account but your bank needs the correct address of the account holder where the money goes due to security reasons and fraud prevention, without the correct address the money will not arrive (does not matter if this is true or not, they might believe). If this is a fraud they might back out of the deal (or just for you being a foreigner). This happened to me more than once (also the picking it up yourself line helps here), the seller never responded after stating these lines / questions.

Any way never pay for something without guarantees (on tori or huuto or whatever site)
I prefer to buy using Ebay due to their money back guarantee, sadly this makes selling there too expensive, So I buy at ebay and sell at tori and huuto. works fine for me.. (or buy at tori and pick up myself).

So swallow your pride, take your loss and learn from this so it does not happen again :thumbsup: :lightbulb:
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betelgeuse
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:25 am

007 wrote: So, my point is not that police won't do a thing but that as a victim, i have nowhere to turn to...and in such cases, I certainly don't need to hear some smartass comment like what police could do since my bike might have ended up deserted somewhere afar or on facebook etc.
As the victim you do have a fair bit of tools available. Most just don't know or want to use them. Ideally they of course wouldn't have to. For example:

http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/kaannokset ... 110805.pdf
Section 7 – Measures requested by the parties
(1) Questioning and other criminal investigation measures requested by a party shall be conducted if he or she demonstrates that they may affect the matter and if they do not result in expenses that are unreasonable in view of the nature of the matter.
(2) In the course of the criminal investigation, the head investigator or, on the basis of Chapter 5, section 2, subsection 1 the public prosecutor, decides on criminal investigation measures requested by a party. When the matter has been transferred to the public prosecutor, the prosecutor decides on these.
If you have a complaint about police conduct, then the Parliamentary ombudsman will investigate those.

http://www.oikeusasiamies.fi/Resource.p ... /index.htx
Rosamunda wrote: My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the police should acknowledge the crime so that, at the very least, it appears in the statistics as an unsolved case of fraud. If they refuse even to do that, you could argue that they are fudging their own performance metrics.
Refusing to accept a criminal report is illegal.
winsiebunny wrote: It usually doesn't come to people's mind that there are frauds in tori.fi because here in Finland things are so transparent. You have the account number then the police can get all the information needed for the investigation.
I use the following procedure for wire payments: 1) If the sum is small, I accept the possibility of fraud (risk assessment based on the history of the seller in the service) 2) For larger sums, I ask the seller to wire my account one cent. This gives you a name to give to the police making them more likely to investigate and also makes it easier for you to pursue the matter in court.


007
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by 007 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:54 am

I cannot fathom stupidity of some posts here. I am not @#$% complaining that my bike got stolen and that police don't do anything. I know @#$% rules and the ways to get the system work for me. phew...

Perhaps, my post about my despair over losing my bike got some to think that i am bit dim in the upper compartment. Fair enough.
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
"Aina, kun opit uuden sanan, opettele samalla sen monikko!"


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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:56 am

betelgeuse wrote:For larger sums, I ask the seller to wire my account one cent. This gives you a name to give to the police making them more likely to investigate and also makes it easier for you to pursue the matter in court.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: That is what Paypal used to do to verify your bank account you connect to paypal. Smart solution, not water tight but will help a great deal to weed out the bad seeds. :thumbsup:
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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:02 am

007 wrote:
Perhaps, my post about my despair over losing my bike
Maybe the tea room would have been the better area of the forum to post this then..... hint... :wink:
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007
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by 007 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:11 am

Piet wrote:
007 wrote:
Perhaps, my post about my despair over losing my bike
Maybe the tea room would have been the better area of the forum to post this then..... hint... :wink:
Well.. kinda yeah. I wouldn't have made the post at all about stolen bike had I not been interested in this thread regarding tori.fi fraud as I wanted to share my own experience. But.. yeah.. people, take my posts regarding my stolen bike as an emotionally fueled post....not a cry for a lesson on rules and laws. thanks.
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winsiebunny
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by winsiebunny » Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:25 pm

TeppoKroatialainen wrote:can i sak you HOW did that person fraud you?
Did you send the money and they didn't send the item or?

Bike tefts are a whooooole diferent topic and it seems like everywhere they have problems with that and different way of tray to handle it, but i wont go into that now.
yep. I was indeed stupid. Now I think about it, it was because I have done this kind of buying and selling on tori.fi so many times and each time things went smoothly. So I thought this country is full of honest people and nobody cheats lol.

I was just posting this lame experience of mine here and hoping people would be careful when buying on tori.fi. Thanks to all those who have read my post and replied. Through all your posts here I actually did learn lots of things. I have been living in Finland for 5 years and I have been over relaxed in this "safe" place. Now I have paid 200 eurs for my lesson and I will just never probably trust online auction websites in Finland again. Not because I think all sellers are fraudsters, just because this kind of crime is somehow unofficially "allowed" by the authorities here.


TeppoKroatialainen
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by TeppoKroatialainen » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:24 am

OK, I'm sorry to hear what happen to you.

Where I come from you can send a parcel vie normal post with so called ''ransom'' (literally :D ) which a receiver has to pay to pick up the parcel and then the sender can get that money.

Is there such a service in Finland?


betelgeuse
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by betelgeuse » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:47 am

TeppoKroatialainen wrote: Where I come from you can send a parcel vie normal post with so called ''ransom'' (literally :D ) which a receiver has to pay to pick up the parcel and then the sender can get that money.

Is there such a service in Finland?
Yes but costly for small sums.


TeppoKroatialainen
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by TeppoKroatialainen » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:10 am

and what is the name of that service? please :D thanks!


betelgeuse
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by betelgeuse » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:05 am

TeppoKroatialainen wrote:and what is the name of that service? please :D thanks!
postiennakko


Upphew
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Upphew » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:27 pm

Piet wrote:In Holland, there is a bike with a find my bike function for sale, if it get stolen, and not found, you get a new one. will search for the links later, but it has BT and gps, it is not a cheap bike 8)

link: https://www.vanmoof.com/en_fi/bikes/smart-straight
15kg, no wonder it costs so much :P
Though gps eats battery like banshee, so kg or two can be accounted on batteries.
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