Tori.fi fraud and police response

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winsiebunny
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by winsiebunny » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:19 pm

UPDATE on this post. So after more than a year, I just received a court decision from Espoo yesterday, there is a list of a few victims. The court has ordered that the fraudster to pay the victims money back. I don't know if she would ever do that though lol!
I googled the fraudster's name and turns out she had got some media attention because of some apps for kids she and her team developed earlier this year. (hmm, how could someone that seems to be career oriented decide to be a thief? interesting!!) I am almost 100 percent sure it is her because she has an exotic and long name and she is of British origin. I also found her on facebook. I will just wait and see if she is gonna pay me the money pack. Thanks you, police and the court! Money back or not, at least there is still justice!



Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

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betelgeuse
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:04 pm

winsiebunny wrote:UPDATE on this post. So after more than a year, I just received a court decision from Espoo yesterday, there is a list of a few victims. The court has ordered that the fraudster to pay the victims money back. I don't know if she would ever do that though lol!
You will get a good idea by ordering enforcement records. They are a matter of public record.

https://oikeus.fi/ulosotto/fi/index/ulo ... uksia.html


winsiebunny
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by winsiebunny » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:15 pm

Upphew wrote:
Rosamunda wrote:....many years ago...

But surely, nowadays it should be relatively simple to conceal an RFID or even a simple bar code or microchip (like cats and dogs) somewhere in a bike. I'm surprised nobody has come up with some kind of app/service that would help people to trace, or at least prove ownership of, their bikes.
Bikes have VINs too and police asks for it when you report theft. I'm not sure if I have mine written down anywhere...

RFID tags would be nice, they would be easily scannable from distance. Thieves could probably fry them, but it would help. My newest one talks BT and can inform other bikes about its whereabouts if reported stolen. Dunno if that works, especially as there aren't that many of those bikes in Finland. But the technology is coming.
thanks for the info :)). I am very happy about the justice that came in the end. My faith in Finland is back:)). I like online shopping and i have been selling and buying on toir.fi for a long time, even one year after that, i bought and sold a bunch of stuff through tori.fi, that was the only time a fraud happened to me.


aZoed
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by aZoed » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:06 pm

winsiebunny wrote:UPDATE on this post. So after more than a year, I just received a court decision from Espoo yesterday, there is a list of a few victims. The court has ordered that the fraudster to pay the victims money back. I don't know if she would ever do that though lol!
I googled the fraudster's name and turns out she had got some media attention because of some apps for kids she and her team developed earlier this year. (hmm, how could someone that seems to be career oriented decide to be a thief? interesting!!) I am almost 100 percent sure it is her because she has an exotic and long name and she is of British origin. I also found her on facebook. I will just wait and see if she is gonna pay me the money pack. Thanks you, police and the court! Money back or not, at least there is still justice!
I wish I had read this thread earlier. Got conned yesterday. Now I'm not sure what hurts more, the money I lost or the way I was made to feel like an idiot. But going by people's posts on here, looks like it's a way of life for the con artists, since they know the law is in their favour. Sort of shales your belief system altogether. Oh well :(


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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:03 pm

aZoed wrote: I wish I had read this thread earlier. Got conned yesterday. Now I'm not sure what hurts more, the money I lost or the way I was made to feel like an idiot. But going by people's posts on here, looks like it's a way of life for the con artists, since they know the law is in their favour. Sort of shales your belief system altogether. Oh well :(
Care to elaborate, what kind of con, what trick was used, what goods were involved? personal details of the con artist like the name the con artist uses (obviously a fake of course), advertised residential area, an address even?

We could make this thread in a "scamwarners" topic like the real website handling Nigerian princes and wealthy benefactors and deceased from Benin and Ghana.

8)
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Oombongo
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Oombongo » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:15 am

Piet wrote:We could make this thread in a "scamwarners" topic like the real website handling Nigerian princes and wealthy benefactors and deceased from Benin and Ghana.

8)
Shurrup! One beautiful widow of a deceased Nigerian general has asked to marry me and assist her to recover what is rightfully hers. About 200 million dollars.
Soon I will be rich and banging a lovely chick on a gold plated bed.
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aZoed
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by aZoed » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:11 pm

Piet wrote:
aZoed wrote: I wish I had read this thread earlier. Got conned yesterday. Now I'm not sure what hurts more, the money I lost or the way I was made to feel like an idiot. But going by people's posts on here, looks like it's a way of life for the con artists, since they know the law is in their favour. Sort of shales your belief system altogether. Oh well :(
Care to elaborate, what kind of con, what trick was used, what goods were involved? personal details of the con artist like the name the con artist uses (obviously a fake of course), advertised residential area, an address even?

We could make this thread in a "scamwarners" topic like the real website handling Nigerian princes and wealthy benefactors and deceased from Benin and Ghana.

8)
Stupid old mobile phone. My US purchased mobile phone stopped working for no apparent reason, and within a week I realised I need a new one desperately. It looked a decent buy at 300 bucks for the phone I was buying. And Mr. Kettunen said he'll ship the phone as soon as I pay up. I asked for a receipt, and the receipt was pretty good too, not in Mr. Kettunen's name but I was convinced he was fine. Obviously not. Mr. Kettunen stopped replying as soon as he go the money. It hurts so bad :D. I'm not sure if it's the money or the way I was made to feel stupid.

I was actually thinking we could start with a simple Google Sheets where you can publically list all the fraud bank account numbers encountered so far. Any user involved in a deal could do a search there and see if the account has been flagged already. Not against the law, is it?


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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:57 pm

aZoed wrote: Stupid old mobile phone. My US purchased mobile phone stopped working for no apparent reason, and within a week I realised I need a new one desperately. It looked a decent buy at 300 bucks for the phone I was buying. And Mr. Kettunen said he'll ship the phone as soon as I pay up. I asked for a receipt, and the receipt was pretty good too, not in Mr. Kettunen's name but I was convinced he was fine. Obviously not. Mr. Kettunen stopped replying as soon as he go the money. It hurts so bad :D. I'm not sure if it's the money or the way I was made to feel stupid.

I was actually thinking we could start with a simple Google Sheets where you can publically list all the fraud bank account numbers encountered so far. Any user involved in a deal could do a search there and see if the account has been flagged already. Not against the law, is it?
As long as all information you write down in this "balcklist" is true (and you are able to prove it) there is nothing wrong with posting it I believe (but I have been wrong before :lol: ). One should be careful not to falsely accuse someone, this can cause a lawsuit for defamation.

From this advertisement for that phone, do you have a copy of the advertisement (printscreen) and the email address used? those are things you need to "blacklist" and prevent this email address being used again by the crook. Phone numbers used? all that kind of information is relevant and help preventing it form happening again.

Something else, good advise for everyone doing business online in Finland with second-hand goods, start using PayPal, you can get your money back if there is no delivery. If the seller refuses to use Paypal, well than you know enough (especially with smart phones and computers, laptops tablets other expensive electronics, etc.).

But for the sake of starting this initiative, lets copy paste all known info here, add missing information if you can and copy paste all into your reply on this thread:

Scammers:
Uses name: ----|--- Email address:----|---- Selling website used:----|---- Item for sale + €:----|---- Phone number used:----|---- Bank account number:


Mr. Kettunen ----|---- [add email address here]--|--[add website]---|--- Phone 300€ ---|--- +358xx-xx-xx-xxx -----|----- FI [insert bank acc. no. here]
Your comment:
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aZoed
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by aZoed » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:16 pm

Piet wrote:
aZoed wrote: Stupid old mobile phone. My US purchased mobile phone stopped working for no apparent reason, and within a week I realised I need a new one desperately. It looked a decent buy at 300 bucks for the phone I was buying. And Mr. Kettunen said he'll ship the phone as soon as I pay up. I asked for a receipt, and the receipt was pretty good too, not in Mr. Kettunen's name but I was convinced he was fine. Obviously not. Mr. Kettunen stopped replying as soon as he go the money. It hurts so bad :D. I'm not sure if it's the money or the way I was made to feel stupid.

I was actually thinking we could start with a simple Google Sheets where you can publically list all the fraud bank account numbers encountered so far. Any user involved in a deal could do a search there and see if the account has been flagged already. Not against the law, is it?
As long as all information you write down in this "balcklist" is true (and you are able to prove it) there is nothing wrong with posting it I believe (but I have been wrong before :lol: ). One should be careful not to falsely accuse someone, this can cause a lawsuit for defamation.

From this advertisement for that phone, do you have a copy of the advertisement (printscreen) and the email address used? those are things you need to "blacklist" and prevent this email address being used again by the crook. Phone numbers used? all that kind of information is relevant and help preventing it form happening again.

Something else, good advise for everyone doing business online in Finland with second-hand goods, start using PayPal, you can get your money back if there is no delivery. If the seller refuses to use Paypal, well than you know enough (especially with smart phones and computers, laptops tablets other expensive electronics, etc.).

But for the sake of starting this initiative, lets copy paste all known info here, add missing information if you can and copy paste all into your reply on this thread:

Scammers:
Uses name: ----|--- Email address:----|---- Selling website used:----|---- Item for sale + €:----|---- Phone number used:----|---- Bank account number:


Mr. Kettunen ----|---- [add email address here]--|--[add website]---|--- Phone 300€ ---|--- +358xx-xx-xx-xxx -----|----- FI [insert bank acc. no. here]
Your comment:
I was gonna share the info and then I thought about the defamation suit since I can't afford to lose anymore money now. :beer_yum: :lol: I'm pretty sure Kettunen is not his real name. I don't even know the phone number.

And there's another Tori scam that happens with PayPal since it is possible to get the money back. This is related to sellers. The buyer pays with PayPal and asks for delivery. Then he later, calls the item broken or not as described and claims money back from PayPal. :/ There is nothing good enough yet.


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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:35 pm

aZoed wrote: I was gonna share the info and then I thought about the defamation suit since I can't afford to lose anymore money now. :beer_yum: :lol: I'm pretty sure Kettunen is not his real name. I don't even know the phone number.

And there's another Tori scam that happens with PayPal since it is possible to get the money back. This is related to sellers. The buyer pays with PayPal and asks for delivery. Then he later, calls the item broken or not as described and claims money back from PayPal. :/ There is nothing good enough yet.
With Paypal it is related to sellers as long as the buyer sends it back, so it is much less likely to happen, also one can sell the item as defective (even it is not) so it is always as described 8) The buyer has to prove that it is not as described, the seller has to prove it is, so making pictures of the whole sending process is an option and also to insure the product by post is an option, than the postal service pays up when it is broken. In all cases the original item must be send back with registered post, this is not standard covered by Paypal (it is on Ebay though).

So the use of Paypal will weed out the bad ones easily because otherwise people have to make after every sale a new paypal account and these need to be verified with email AND a bank account, and when someone opens every week another paypal account with the same bank account, it is gonna show.

By the way, did you contact Tori.fi asiakaspalvelu with the request for the IP address because of this scam? If you have the IP address, the police can do a discovery request at the ISP to get the name of the account holder, well anyway there are some (limited) possibilities to trace the guy that screwed you. At least file a report!

About the scare for defamation, no scammer will sue you for defamation, these people try to stay under the radar, and if he loses he has to pay everything incl. your legal costs. Basically you can prove you paid him and he has no prove he delivered, you win! case closed.

So, you are right when it is an incidental scammer, but the professional scammers have little chance when using Paypal.

Well good luck, but yeah please share the other info if you dare.. 8)
Last edited by Piet on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aZoed
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by aZoed » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:54 pm

Piet wrote: With Paypal it is related to sellers as long as the buyer sends it back, so it is much less likely to happen, also one can sell the item as defective (even it is not) so it is always as described 8) The buyer has to prove that it is not as described, the seller has to prove it is, so making pictures of the whole sending process is an option and also to insure the product by post is an option, than the postal service pays up when it is broken. In all cases the original item must be send back with registered post, this is not standard covered by Paypal (it is on Ebay though).

So the use of Paypal will weed out the bad ones easily because otherwise people have to make after every sale a new paypal account and these need to be verified with email AND a bank account, and when someone opens every week another paypal account with the same bank account, it is gonna show.

By the way, did you contact Tori.fi asiakaspalvelu with the request for the IP address because of this scam? If you have the IP address, the police can do a discovery request at the ISP to get the name of the account holder, well anyway there are some (limited) possibilities to trace the guy that screwed you. At least file a report!

About the scare for defamation, no scammer will sue you for defamation, these people try to stay under the radar, and if he loses he has to pay everything incl. your legal costs. Basically you can prove you paid him and he has no prove he delivered, you win! case closed.

Well good luck, but yeah please share the other info if you dare.. 8)

So, you are right when it is an incidental scammer, but the professional scammers have little chance when using Paypal.
Martti Kettunen ----|---- [email protected]--|--Tori.fi---|--- Phone 300€ ---|--- +358xx-xx-xx-xxx -----|----- FI0356200920388922

There you go. I just did it. I still believe making a publically maintained spreadsheet would be much easier and effective.
The attitude of Tori support made me realise that a scammer has more rights than the scammed in Finland. The seller had listed his phone number with the advert, I just never needed it. Later I asked them for any info related to the guy and they said that they can not give out any information that is not publically listed to anyone except the police. So I wrote back requesting the phone number (since that had been listed publically with the advert). And they declined to provide that as well. I'm doing a police complaint now. Waited the 3 days that I should have to receive the package, according to the seller. (I'm being the ideal buyer knowing fully well I've been conned) But I want this scammer idiot to get what he deserves. :cry:


betelgeuse
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:36 pm

aZoed wrote: There you go. I just did it. I still believe making a publically maintained spreadsheet would be much easier and effective.
The spreadsheet would be a personal data registry and that has a lot of legal implications.


Manfromnorth
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Manfromnorth » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:49 pm

I didn't read all the posts here so I'm sorry if this simple advice was shown before.

You should never wire funds to someone you don't know before you get your hands on the sales item. Either pay when you collect it, or ask for mail delivery & payment on collection with the right to open the box to check what's inside before you accept the item. If the seller disappears he is fraudster. Some honest sellers are not comfortable sending by mail before funds are sent though, as there is a risk no one shows up to collect the item from post office, and in time the shipment is returned at seller's cost. However you can always move on to next seller to protect yourself from potential fraud.


AldenG
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by AldenG » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:41 pm

If a scammer hides behind someone else's real identity and you publish that information tarred as a scammer, you have indeed defamed an innocent party who would justifiably want reparations.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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Piet
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Re: Tori.fi fraud and police response

Post by Piet » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:22 pm

AldenG wrote:If a scammer hides behind someone else's real identity and you publish that information tarred as a scammer, you have indeed defamed an innocent party who would justifiably want reparations.
A name is not by definition unique and therefore not defaming anyone as such, (except mine in Finland that is 8) ) , especially not when your name is f.e. Kettunen (wasn't there a painter called like that?) however the combination email address and bank account number is never from an innocent person when you transferred money to that bank account and had contact using that email address.

In this case it is water tight prove, the money did go to that bank account and the communication did go through that email, so only if someone is hacked and his bank account is used without his knowledge, this could theoretically be defamation.
However there is no ill intent, the intention is to warn others for the malicious practices with said email address and bank account, this is also in the benefit of a potential victim of hacking and identity theft (true owner of said email and bank account). So either way it is never defamation, you do the victim actually a favor.

Just saying. 8)

And then again, if you use a VPN when posting such information, who cares... :lol: 8)

@aZoed of course when you still receive the phone, please rectify your post accordingly :!: :thumbsup:

Scammers:
Uses name: ----|--- Email address:----|---- Selling website used:----|---- Item for sale + €:----|---- Phone number used:----|---- Bank account number:

Martti Kettunen ----|---- [email protected]--|--Tori.fi---|--- Phone 300€ ---|--- +358xx-xx-xx-xxx -----|----- FI0356200920388922
Comment: PS the scammers home bank: Bank: EtelKarjalan Op (Osuuspankki) Lappeenranta PL Pormestarinkatu Lappeenranta
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