Housing benefits and income support for FI students

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Piet
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Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:23 pm

Situation:

Finnish native Girl 26yr studies at a educational institute in the north of Finland and lives in a Campus home.
Now rules have changed regarding housing benefits allowance.
Normally during summer from june till the end of august, no students benefits and or student housing benefits are paid because there are no classes.
The Finnsh girl has no job because she is studying, and no seasonal job is found for the months of june july and august next year.

How does this student pay for her dwelling and her food in those 3 months if she has no income?

assumptions: Kela wont pay unemployment benefits for June July and August because her study is not finished, it will continue in September.
Toimeentulotuki is refused because she has saved in the past 4 years 5000 euro for her continuation of her studies abroad after she finishes the current curriculum.

Is her only option to give up her dwelling and move all her furniture back to her parents (more than 500km away) and then hope to get her dwelling back after 3 months and move everything back. Or can she unlist her school, ask for unemployment benefits during those 3 months and then turn everything back after 3 months. what about the housing benefits that start 1 of august to be disconnected from the student allowance.

Anyone any ideas about this? (betelgeuse? Rosamunda?)

any input is welcome (my friends daughter will be helped greatly with any ideas).

Best wishes for the new year to everyone! :beer_yum:


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Housing benefits and income support for FI students

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Honest
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Honest » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:18 pm

If she can't find any seasonal job, can't save anything during all the year and her family can't give her anything then she takes out a student loan

And also if she can trust her parents and they are not on social support she can keep her 5000 euros in their account.


betelgeuse
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by betelgeuse » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:09 pm

Piet wrote: Now rules have changed regarding housing benefits allowance.
Which rule change are you referring to? Students are going to be moved to general housing benefits from August 2017. I am not aware of any recent changes regarding housing.
Piet wrote: How does this student pay for her dwelling and her food in those 3 months if she has no income?
Housing benefits are available under the new rules.

"Opintoraha otetaan vastedes huomioon tulona, mutta toisaalta asumistuki tulee opiskelijalle myös kesäkuukausina. "

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/taloussanomat ... 07050.html
Honest wrote:If she can't find any seasonal job, can't save anything during all the year and her family can't give her anything then she takes out a student loan
Agreed. In addition or alternatively she can take summer classes to get the monthly study grants.
Honest wrote:And also if she can trust her parents and they are not on social support she can keep her 5000 euros in their account.
To do what? I can't see any useful outcomes out of that without breaking the law. If the money legally belongs to the parents, gift tax needs to be paid. If it's just in trust, you would need to commit fraud to get income support.


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Piet
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:58 pm

Happy New year!!!


Thanks for the replies so far, it seems I was a little unclear about things. The housing benefit rules I was refering to was indeed just the change from student housing benefits to general housing benefits.

Last year the Girl I'm talking about indeed took some summer courses to keep a continuation of the student benefits as betelgeuse suggested.

As said indeed moving her savings to her parents account would include gift tax, although the amount of tax free gifts is raising this year too to I believe 5000 euro's (used to be 4000) in three years time.

So is my following assumption correct:

There might be room for walking the edge of the law :wink: if she would legally give 4999 euro to her parents now (not on welfare), no gift tax would be required under the new rules, that would mean she has only (for arguments sake) lets say 100 euros in her bank account from 3 months before and until the moment of requesting toimeentulotuki for the months of june, july and august, it would be granted. Right? The loss of student housing benefits over june and july will be compensated by toimeentulotuki as well and for the month of august, general housing benefits can be received. right? All this without the need to give up her apartment (on campus) and de-register from her "school" for these 3 months. If this income support is enough or not is of no concern now (it is still a hypothetical situation that might occur in the future, in case she gets no season job or no summer course), that bridge will be crossed when it is there.

This way would prevent her from the need for any loan for housing and food (if she would even be able to get that in the first place) and guarantee her extra curriculum abroad study when the parents donate as a gift this same money of 4999 euro back when she needs it. The only risk here is the possibility that both parents die before that time and the 4999 euro becomes part of the inheritance (then tax must be paid over it).

right?
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betelgeuse
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by betelgeuse » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:21 pm

Piet wrote: As said indeed moving her savings to her parents account would include gift tax, although the amount of tax free gifts is raising this year too to I believe 5000 euro's (used to be 4000) in three years time.
This made me think that gift tax is not really an issue since the money can be split fifty-fifty with the parents. This means that under the 2017 rules one can donate up to 10k.
Piet wrote: There might be room for walking the edge of the law :wink: if she would legally give 4999 euro to her parents now (not on welfare), no gift tax would be required under the new rules, that would mean she has only (for arguments sake) lets say 100 euros in her bank account from 3 months before and until the moment of requesting toimeentulotuki for the months of june, july and august, it would be granted. Right?
Getting income support requires to not be eligible for a student loan. This means she needs to have a negative credit marking so that no bank gives her a loan.

http://www.kela.fi/toimeentulotuki-opiskelijat


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Piet
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:19 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Piet wrote: As said indeed moving her savings to her parents account would include gift tax, although the amount of tax free gifts is raising this year too to I believe 5000 euro's (used to be 4000) in three years time.
This made me think that gift tax is not really an issue since the money can be split fifty-fifty with the parents. This means that under the 2017 rules one can donate up to 10k.
Piet wrote: There might be room for walking the edge of the law :wink: if she would legally give 4999 euro to her parents now (not on welfare), no gift tax would be required under the new rules, that would mean she has only (for arguments sake) lets say 100 euros in her bank account from 3 months before and until the moment of requesting toimeentulotuki for the months of june, july and august, it would be granted. Right?
Getting income support requires to not be eligible for a student loan. This means she needs to have a negative credit marking so that no bank gives her a loan.

http://www.kela.fi/toimeentulotuki-opiskelijat
For others to read: same in English: http://www.kela.fi/web/en/social-assistance-students

What I wonder here is if the 3 months where no student financial aid is given, qualifies for not being entitled to student benefits (you don't get them) would this have the same consequences for a loan?

Seems to me that Finnish Law leaves a hole of 3 months for students to fill themselves. This could be troubling for non academic students hence there will be almost no chance they will get the loan from a bank (when someone f.e. studies to be a circus artist, or an art painter or a cartoonist or any other income insecure future related study on an open university or vocational school).

Also Toimeentulotuki seems to be (almost) impossible if it is the only source of income.

Thanks so far for thinking with me... you have been a great help so far "betelgeuse"

I think the solution for this girl will be staying with her parents in summer (and pay them nothing for the food) and trying to get the apartment rent lowered for these 3 months because the rent includes heating water and electricity which she will not be using... some campus rental companies are willing to do this (otherwise the apartment might be empty for 3 months and that does not generate revenue at all). This way the cost of living can be greatly reduced for these 3 months.

I feel sorry for all that do not have this option, really seems state of Finland treats their (not having rich parents) youth and future wage earners and tax payers really badly.
On the other hand, all other countries I have been in, seem to be worse nowadays (Netherlands was good in the 90's but nothing left from that either).
Seems governments try to squeeze more and more from the poor people every year. I wonder when people finally think that enough is enough.
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betelgeuse
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by betelgeuse » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:45 pm

Piet wrote: What I wonder here is if the 3 months where no student financial aid is given, qualifies for not being entitled to student benefits (you don't get them) would this have the same consequences for a loan?
The loan is available to draw down two times a year.

http://www.kela.fi/web/en/student-loan- ... nd-payment

Guess one could draw the August instalment and gift it away but it would show up in the August income support calculations for sure.
Piet wrote: Seems to me that Finnish Law leaves a hole of 3 months for students to fill themselves. This could be troubling for non academic students hence there will be almost no chance they will get the loan from a bank (when someone f.e. studies to be a circus artist, or an art painter or a cartoonist or any other income insecure future related study on an open university or vocational school).
I don't think there's a hole though the general level and format of the student support can be debated. Everyone will get a study loan from bank as long as they have the government guarantee decision from Kela. The risk to the bank is equal to state bonds.
Piet wrote: Also Toimeentulotuki seems to be (almost) impossible if it is the only source of income.
I don't understand this comment. If you are not eligible or don't have the income, then income support will be more.


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Piet
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:09 am

betelgeuse wrote:
Piet wrote: Seems to me that Finnish Law leaves a hole of 3 months for students to fill themselves. This could be troubling for non academic students hence there will be almost no chance they will get the loan from a bank (when someone f.e. studies to be a circus artist, or an art painter or a cartoonist or any other income insecure future related study on an open university or vocational school).
I don't think there's a hole though the general level and format of the student support can be debated. Everyone will get a study loan from bank as long as they have the government guarantee decision from Kela. The risk to the bank is equal to state bonds.
Piet wrote: Also Toimeentulotuki seems to be (almost) impossible if it is the only source of income.
I don't understand this comment. If you are not eligible or don't have the income, then income support will be more.
What I mean with the hole in the law is that apparently students without rich parents will start their career with a debt and the ones with rich parents won't, that makes opportunities not equal (in case f.e. a house has to be bought near a working location, the start of a company etc.)

A debt is by definition like a sword of Damocles, always there and always the risk it will fall. (trust me I know, I have had debts in my life and they severely hinder ones development and diminish ones chances, so happy I am totally debt free now, no bank owns me).

Regarding the last remark, I found this on the Kela web page:
If you do not qualify for financial aid for students, you must have some other primary source of livelihood than basic social assistance (for instance an unemployment benefit, paid employment or adult education allowance).
Maybe I was not clear that I meant when you are a student. :wink:

And giving it away will not help either, when granted, Kela (toimeentulotuki) will use the monthly amount as an income, even when you do not take the loan. so it does not matter when you actually get it paid.

I guess it is clear what to do: check your right for a loan, see how much (table) this will be for each month, calculate your rent and other eligible costs and see if that total income will make you eligible to basic social income assistance (if it is low enough). Then one can apply for it, otherwise it is a waste of time. The loan is no option anyway for previous mentioned reasons, so back to mum and dad is the wisest thing to do in that situation :wink:

Man I am so happy I do not have to do all that sh*t anymore....my retirement really is a blessing (good health too of course, they don't always happen the same time :P )
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betelgeuse
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by betelgeuse » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:23 pm

Piet wrote: What I mean with the hole in the law is that apparently students without rich parents will start their career with a debt and the ones with rich parents won't, that makes opportunities not equal (in case f.e. a house has to be bought near a working location, the start of a company etc.)
If you make the study loan payments depend on salaries, it can be made identical to study grants that one pays back in taxes. Study grants by and large are wealth transfers not between people but within ones lifetime. This is was not a statement in favour of either model. For those fluent in Finnish, the Libera report on their account model is a good read on the topic:

http://www.libera.fi/wp-content/uploads ... ustili.pdf

No matter what you do, you can't make rich people and poor people equal in opportunities. However, you can make sure to guarantee the a certain minimum of opportunities to everyone.
Piet wrote: I guess it is clear what to do: check your right for a loan, see how much (table) this will be for each month, calculate your rent and other eligible costs and see if that total income will make you eligible to basic social income assistance (if it is low enough). Then one can apply for it, otherwise it is a waste of time. The loan is no option anyway for previous mentioned reasons, so back to mum and dad is the wisest thing to do in that situation :wink:
With Kela providing reasonable web services to apply for income support, it makes sense to apply if one is not 100% sure that he/she is not eligible.


Flossy1978
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Flossy1978 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:33 pm

Can't she try harder to get a summer job? There are always plenty around. If she starts applying and looking for one now, just anything, why can't she get one?

Seems like she wants to do all she can NOT to take care of herself.


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rinso
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by rinso » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:08 pm

My children were in the same position. They solved it on their own and they used the methods mentioned by Piet. (come home for the summer, summer classes, summer job, student loan) Not always an ideal situation but they managed it and were happy about it.
Based on our experiences I don't see it as a big problem. (and no we are not rich, on the contrary)


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Piet
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:36 pm

Flossy1978 wrote:Can't she try harder to get a summer job? There are always plenty around. If she starts applying and looking for one now, just anything, why can't she get one?

Seems like she wants to do all she can NOT to take care of herself.
A little short sighted statement in my opinion, besides the reason for not being able to get a summer job is the location of her university in combination of high local unemployment in general, being temporarily employed for free by työharjoitelu and the huge local influx of free labour a huge amount of asylum-seekers from Irak that in the name of integration are given all the typical summer jobs but without pay in the form of mentioned työharjoitelu. To summerize: the only summer jobs available are the unpaid ones, so there is no solution.

Second reason for not going for a local summer job is that all her friends are gone with the summer, that means she will be there alone for 3 months without a driving license (she does not have one) with very poor public transport and not really a nice environment then, for a young girl all alone in the middle of an almost deserted campus. (university of Lapland)
rinso wrote:My children were in the same position. They solved it on their own and they used the methods mentioned by Piet. (come home for the summer, summer classes, summer job, student loan) Not always an ideal situation but they managed it and were happy about it.
Based on our experiences I don't see it as a big problem. (and no we are not rich, on the contrary)
As said, the available options have been mentioned now and she will have to decide which of the available tools she wants to use. Thanks for all your input, everyone.
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Hämeen Hitain
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Hämeen Hitain » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:23 pm

One option are the supermarket chains, Lidl, S and K. They have theis summer job programs for young adults.

S is recruiting now (Rovaniemi): https://www.s-kanava.fi/web/s-ryhma/avoimet-tyopaikat

Lidl soon: http://tyopaikat.lidl.fi/cps/rde/SID-8D ... l/2316.htm

K later: http://www.kesko.fi/tyopaikat/k-duuni/kesatyo/

A website for summer jobs: http://kesaduuni.org/


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Piet
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Re: Housing benefits and income support for FI students

Post by Piet » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Hämeen Hitain wrote:One option are the supermarket chains, Lidl, S and K. They have theis summer job programs for young adults.

S is recruiting now (Rovaniemi): https://www.s-kanava.fi/web/s-ryhma/avoimet-tyopaikat

Lidl soon: http://tyopaikat.lidl.fi/cps/rde/SID-8D ... l/2316.htm

K later: http://www.kesko.fi/tyopaikat/k-duuni/kesatyo/

A website for summer jobs: http://kesaduuni.org/

Yeah Nice thought and thanks for the links but in real life this will not work:

I followed the first link and then some other link on that page and ended up at http://kesaduuni.org/

check out the picture (screen-shot of the possible choices where to find summer jobs)
Image

It does not even give you the possibility to search in Lapland, all other places in Finland but there... guess why?...
Very motivating to go on searching Image

Also remember that these companies, if they hire, it must be as cheap as possible, so työharjoitelu go first, then the under 18, then the 18-21, then the 21-23 and last al older ones, guess in which category this girl falls..... right Image
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