Invoice from free online movie

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Kaka
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:38 am

Invoice from free online movie

Post by Kaka » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:59 pm

Hello guys,

I have been watching online free movie sometimes. For example, I downloaded popcorn times app in my computer then watched sometimes. Its free and got from friends.

Suddenly, I got 600€ lasku. Then I called immidetly that place where I got invoice. They said yes. You must pay. What the hell then.


Do you have any idea about these things? Please share it.



Invoice from free online movie

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Hämeen Hitain
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:18 am

Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Hämeen Hitain » Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:54 pm

Some people have ended in court (markkinaoikeus). You can win or lose (in Finnish):

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/digitoday/art ... 78392.html

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/digitoday/art ... 84931.html


007
Posts: 620
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by 007 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:23 pm

Kaka wrote:Hello guys,

I have been watching online free movie sometimes. For example, I downloaded popcorn times app in my computer then watched sometimes. Its free and got from friends.

Suddenly, I got 600€ lasku. Then I called immidetly that place where I got invoice. They said yes. You must pay. What the hell then.


Do you have any idea about these things? Please share it.
Now that you have called them and perhaps admitted to have used popcorn time, you are on their noose. Popcorn is like torrent that shares contents that's being downloaded.

Next time, use vpn and never respond to their letters. There's a risk of course but sharing copyrighted contents illegally always invovles risk of being made to pay for it.

Edit: I in no way recommend or encourage distribution of pirated materials!
Last edited by 007 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Go where you are celebrated – not tolerated."
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AldenG
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by AldenG » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:05 pm

Kaka wrote:Hello guys,

I have been watching online free movie sometimes. For example, I downloaded popcorn times app in my computer then watched sometimes. Its free and got from friends.

Suddenly, I got 600€ lasku. Then I called immidetly that place where I got invoice. They said yes. You must pay. What the hell then.


Do you have any idea about these things? Please share it.
In case you can't read those articles, the guy who lost his case ignored two of those demand letters and was adjudicated by the court to pay the original 600 demand plus 12 416,50 in court costs. Hedman Partners have been doing this successfully all over the EU and the Nordic countries. As you can see from the Wikipedia article on Popcorn Time, and as 007 pointed out, if you're using Popcorn Time you are both consuming and distributing content even if you don't realize it. Plus it sounds like you've already admitted to Hedman that you did indeed use Pirate Time, not that it would much matter since they already have strong technical evidence. Typically they know what you watched, when you watched it, the exact times you clicked pause, resume, back, forward, etc, and what got automatically shared with other users. According to the more recent of the two articles, there are two such cases currently in litigation. Those would be people who ignored the letter or refused to pay.

The older article about the guy who won his case says he had a password-free WiFi router and claimed that other people had connected to it to access the service. Presumably he also denied having knowledge or giving permission. Hedman Partners ended up paying 28 135,60 for the guy's lawyers, disinterested technical experts, and court fees. The technical experts determined there was no trace of pirated material on his hard drive. Of course that was a "win" for him in name only. He walked away with zero profit after a whole lot of stress and his own time consumed without payment. For you, having used the service, at this point you can't simply delete stuff and expect that it would not be found during forensic analysis. The analysts would assuredly find evidence either of actual use and content or of deliberate destruction of evidence.

Sometimes content owners or their lawyers use letters like these as scare tactics without the intent of going all the way to court. They are happy if a certain percentage of people pay. But apparently not Hedman Partners -- it appears that they will eventually take people to court who have ignored the letters and the news reports of successful court cases. If you cooperate, it might be possible to get them to accept a smaller payment if it saves them the cost (or loss) of using a collection agency to collect money or court bailiff to collect property. If you show them you are poor, they might be more likely to agree to a smaller payment. Some lawyers like and reward people who make their work easier and less argumentative. Others delight in tormenting the most helpless. It's the luck of the draw what kind of person is handling your case.

I'm not making any recommendation one way or the other. Legal matters can get complicated, and even advice is usually expensive if it is professional -- but still it's less expensive than losing in court.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


Kaka
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:38 am

Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Kaka » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:40 am

roger_roger wrote:
Kaka wrote:Hello guys,

I have been watching online free movie sometimes. For example, I downloaded popcorn times app in my computer then watched sometimes. Its free and got from friends.

Suddenly, I got 600€ lasku. Then I called immidetly that place where I got invoice. They said yes. You must pay. What the hell then.


Do you have any idea about these things? Please share it.
your questions are generally very vague and hard to interpret... you should learn the skills to ask question... A good question is formation of clear words so the reader doesn't have to guess what you mean.

In this case, did you download the movie in your computer to watch? or did you watch it just like streaming youtube videos?

As of my understanding... till now, downloading and streaming to watch copyrighted material illegally is not a crime in Finland but uploading and distributing is.

How did they come to know about it? How can they guarantee it is you who watched it? who send you the bill? what is written in it? can you paste it here by hiding your name/address or any other personal info?



mykds
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:23 am

Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by mykds » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:08 pm

How is copyrighted material handled in finland anyways.
Is it illegal to download or is only the upload illegal.


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Beep_Boop
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Location: Niflheim, Suomi

Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Beep_Boop » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:28 pm

I can't give you any legal advice, but I can tell you how you got caught.

Popcorn Time is a P2P software, and it works the same as any other torrent software, you download from other people and other people download from you. There are companies that have bots that fake-downloads lots of movies, TV shows, applications, porn, etc. So now when poor you wants to download something, you'll end up connecting to those fake-download bots that will record IP address, time of download, file you're downloading, and even predict whether you downloaded the file fully or not.

These companies then archives and indexes these massive lists and offer to sell them to interested customers. Those customers are usually law firms. They go to copyright holders (people who made the films) and tell them they can recover millions for them, so the copyright holders agree. Then the law firms buy the data from the data collection companies, usually targeting users in specific countries (law firms in Finland would buy data that has Finnish IP addresses), then they contact your internet service provider and ask for your information under some law in Finland. Once they have your info, they send you a letter to pay. They usually automate the process to make it as fast as possible for them. A lot of people end up paying to avoid any troubles with the law.

If you refuse to pay and the matter is taken to court, the law firm has to prove that it's you have downloaded the material, which isn't that easy. In most cases, they'd have a recording of your call to them or something you posted online or have the police confiscate your computer and find the material there.. or other things I don't know. Once the court is sufficiently convinced it's you who downloaded, you pay the fine and the legal fees.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


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Piet
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Piet » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:35 pm

As others already said here before, you're screwed because you called them.

There might still be hope for you if you dare to take them on in court.
Reason: Hedman & Partners use a Firm in Germany for the evidence, it seems, by a court document from US, that this same Firm is used in several cases in US and now an expert on bit-torrent has written a piece about the inaccuracy of their evidence gathering. https://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-exp ... ce-170210/

But again, you gave yourself up already, so my advice: pay up or else pay more... :twisted:

If you ever plan to do something stupid like downloading / uploading = Torrents / popcorn / pirate time, you should understand that you are not anonymous doing this and can be caught red handed. Using, unknowingly that you do this an app like popcorn, does not grant you a free pass to leave prison without paying. Ignorance is no defence.

In Finland (as said before) 3 cases are well known of this going to court.

1st was of a women being accused of downloading using direct connect for only 10 minutes, she refused and eventually won the case because she could prove it was most likely one of the visitors at a party of 100 at her home at the time of the download.
https://torrentfreak.com/10-min-wifi-th ... ll-110727/
https://torrentfreak.com/open-wifi-owne ... es-120515/

2nd was the guy that was accused of downloading some black sails episode, he got a letter from hedgman & partners to pay and started bragging about that on several fora and admitted guild at those fora with his name visible in the letter he posted with this bragging, he got not so high conviction but had to pay legal costs of the plaintiff.
https://torrentfreak.com/pirating-tv-sh ... 00-160705/

3rd just a few days ago, same as 2nd, got letter but refused to pay, police did forensics on his network and PC's he did not even have a bit-torrent program nor the files supposedly downloaded, seems it was because of his open WIFI accessible from 300m !!!! wow!! but he won the case..
https://torrentfreak.com/accused-file-s ... rt-170207/

I would say regardless of your intentions on the internet, to prevent false accusations, and snooping by anyone (state, ISP, trolls), always use a VPN for EVERYTHING you do, beware it is no silver bullet, but it makes snooping a lot more difficult, and trolls in general go for easy gains.

And when ever you receive a letter from a trolling company like described, politely answer the letter with the following Letter (never call) :

Sorry sir, mrs, I do not know what you are talking about, it was not me and I did not give permission to anyone to use my network to download the said file, you must be mistaken, your data / gathered evidence must be flawed.
I hope I have informed you enough with this letter, kind regards....bla bla End of message.

After this 2 things can happen:
1) they leave you alone because it is easier to go after people that do like what you did.. confess and pay up.
2) they ask the police to investigate and your PC / house, gets scrubbed for evidence.

And for all that are unaware: Downloading AND Uploading of copyrighted material from what you do not own these copyrights from, are BOTH illegal in Finland.
If you do not agree to that, vote Pirate Party 8)

If you want to know more about the eternal fight between copyright holders and their adversaries, Privacy, Filesharing and human rights; check out the website Torrentfreak dot com regularly, they have a huge amount of information on this matter in their archives and running articles.

Thats all folks.. 8)
If god would give us the source code, we could change the world
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mykds
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by mykds » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Piet wrote: And for all that are unaware: Downloading AND Uploading of copyrighted material from what you do not own these copyrights from, are BOTH illegal in Finland.
If you do not agree to that, vote Pirate Party 8)
Good to know. :)


AldenG
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by AldenG » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:15 pm

:thumbsup: Beep_Boop

On Edit: :thumbsup: Piet, too
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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Beep_Boop
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Beep_Boop » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:58 am

Oh, I just remembered a tip: Enable disk encryption WITH A STRONGPASSWORD on your computer. If the police take your computer, refuse to supply the password.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


AldenG
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by AldenG » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:22 am

Beep_Boop wrote: ...
These companies then archives and indexes these massive lists and offer to sell them to interested customers. Those customers are usually law firms. They go to copyright holders (people who made the films) and tell them they can recover millions for them, so the copyright holders agree. Then the law firms buy the data from the data collection companies, usually targeting users in specific countries (law firms in Finland would buy data that has Finnish IP addresses), then they contact your internet service provider and ask for your information under some law in Finland. Once they have your info, they send you a letter to pay. They usually automate the process to make it as fast as possible for them. A lot of people end up paying to avoid any troubles with the law.
...
So it's really just high-tech ambulance chasing? Do the copyright holders get the smallest slice of this human pie?

As a creator myself (and for other reasons), I definitely believe in respecting legitimate IP. But this smells more like cynical exploitation of producers and illicit consumers alike by grubbing, opportunistic middlemen looking to squeeze as much blood out of other people's creativity, work, and ethical lapses or ignorance as the law will permit.

Not that it should surprise me.

But maybe you and I are both mistaken and it's all a moral and ethical celebration of the majesty of the law, a case of white knights redressing wrongs committed against the most aggrieved of us. Yes, upon reflection, this must surely be the case.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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Beep_Boop
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Beep_Boop » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:05 pm

AldenG wrote:So it's really just high-tech ambulance chasing? Do the copyright holders get the smallest slice of this human pie?
It's actually simply about the money, for both the copyright holders and the law firms.
Copyright holders get two benefits: One, they get a portion of the fines, which is agreed between then and the law firms. Two, they get to keep up the illusion of enforcement because these stories spread; people who pay up tell their friends and family.
Law firms get easy money in most cases.
Every f*cking application is unique.You can't measure the result of your application based on random anecdotes online. Stop being a moron!


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Oombongo
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by Oombongo » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:58 pm

AldenG wrote:
Kaka wrote:Hello guys,

I have been watching online free movie sometimes. For example, I downloaded popcorn times app in my computer then watched sometimes. Its free and got from friends.

Suddenly, I got 600€ lasku. Then I called immidetly that place where I got invoice. They said yes. You must pay. What the hell then.


Do you have any idea about these things? Please share it.
Of course that was a "win" for him in name only. He walked away with zero profit after a whole lot of stress and his own time consumed without payment.
Wonder why couldn't he sue them for millions back for emotional trauma and complete waste of his time. Something to do with Finnish laws?

Anyways, some of these copyright trolls try to go for honey combing tactics.

Have some read you all (including about 900 pages long thread if you are interested).

https://murobbs.muropaketti.com/posts/1718196596/
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harryc
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Re: Invoice from free online movie

Post by harryc » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:44 pm

Where does streaming or downloading films, etc. from Youtube fit into this scheme of things?

And why the advice not to CALL? Taping of phone calls is illegal - and if one is calling to deny then the illegal tape wouldn't even be worth squat.
Last edited by harryc on Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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