Nordea hiding behind the law?

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NukkuMatti
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:51 pm

Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by NukkuMatti » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:14 pm

I have some problems with nordea to get a simple service done.

Situation: My Father in Law is in the Hospital on the terminal patients ward. He is very conscious and there is nothing wrong with his mind or memory, he is just slowly dying and can not be cured.
He asked me to take care of his financials and provided me with a general "valtakirja"

So I went to his bank Nordea and asked what I need to be able to withdraw money from his account at a cash machine (my father in law likes to give sometimes his grand children or children some money so they can go have lunch in a nearby diner or lounas paika) after they visited him in the hospital. Also some other reasons for him to have cash money there with him make it desirable that I can go and get him some money out of a nearby machine (otto).

Now this is where Nordea makes a big problem:
Nordea says that I am not allowed to use the bank card of my Father in law because they are personal. So I ask them how we can solve that, they answer that I should get my own card for his account, I say "splendid lets do that", Nordea answers, could you and your Father in law come here to the bank tomorrow? I tell them that my Father in law is in the Hospital and not able to get out, he is a terminal patient. The bank answers oh..than that is not possible. So I ask them: are you telling me that Nordea refuses to give my Father in law his own money? That sound really bad, I know banks that went bankrupt / into crisis because of a statement like that, I mean come on a bank is refusing you to give you your money...
According to the bank there is only the option of a edunvalvontavaltakirja, but that needs a statement from the doctor that the patient is no longer capable to make decisions, which he clearly still is.
Nordea tells me that I will need a valtakirja specifically from / for the bank, signed by my Father in law to withdraw money at the cashier.
Also it seems that for every withdrawal from my Father in law his bank account, a separate valta kirja is required which states the amount.

This means that for every time my Father in Law wants to withdraw money (50 / 100€) I need to go to the bank, get a blank valtakirja, go to the hospital to my father in law in visiting hours, have him fill the form and sign, go back to the bank, pay extra 5 euros for the service to get his cash, go back to the hospital to bring the money. that means driving back and forth half of the day for coffee money.. :evil:

And this idiotic procedure only because my Father in law cannot come to the bank. I think I will ask the bank tomorrow if their employee that needs to see and talk with my Father in law, wants to join me to the hospital to take care of the needed interview there, of if I should have my Father in law brought to the bank by ambulance and invite Yle news at the same time to report about this ridiculous procedure. :evil: :evil:

Does anybody else have a LEGAL solution? (other than just using the credit card of my father in law without telling the bank).



Nordea hiding behind the law?

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PJG
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by PJG » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:51 am

What's the big problem here? You're making things more difficult than you should for yourself and for the people in the bank who are understandably unwilling to just let you do what you think you should be able to do with someone elses bank account. It's not your account. He's of 'sound mind'. Why would they give you, the son/daughter in law a bank card to draw whatever money you want, whenever you want?

If you want basically open access to his account using another card, the bank are absolutely correct to treat such a thing with suspicion. I can't ever imagine a situation where that kind of thing would be considered normal, or correct, even in the circumstances you describe. You're the son/daughter in law. You realise even most married couples in Finland don't have such arrangements, don't you? It's not your money. You have no right to or business having a bank card for your father in laws personal banking account.

Why don't you do the same things any other person would do? Get your father in law to transfer and agreed amount of money to your account and you give him the pocket money.


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wolf80
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by wolf80 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:19 am

For me it is weird that your father in law doesn't simply give you his own bank card and code to get the money out of the next ATM. Also NukkuMatti's solution of tranferring money to your account seems rather easy.

So why do you need to have access to all of his money? Something smells a bit dodgy here.


Upphew
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by Upphew » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:00 am

PJG wrote:Why don't you do the same things any other person would do? Get your father in law to transfer and agreed amount of money to your account and you give him the pocket money.
This was my first reaction. Or second. First was that bank is doing good job protecting their customer's money, so greedy family member doesn't bleed the dying elder dry before other heirs.
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betelgeuse
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:16 pm

NukkuMatti wrote:Does anybody else have a LEGAL solution? (other than just using the credit card of my father in law without telling the bank).
You have plenty of options:
  • Setup a recurring transfer to your account and use your personal cards to take out the money (you can just return the money if it's not needed)
  • Give yourself full usage rights to the account and use your online banking
  • Get yourself the card already mentioned
  • Get your Father in law a tablet that they can use online banking with in the Hospital
Getting full usage rights is more risky for the father in law than a card because limits can be set on the card.
NukkuMatti wrote:Nordea says that I am not allowed to use the bank card of my Father in law because they are personal. So I ask them how we can solve that, they answer that I should get my own card for his account, I say "splendid lets do that", Nordea answers, could you and your Father in law come here to the bank tomorrow? I tell them that my Father in law is in the Hospital and not able to get out, he is a terminal patient. The bank answers oh..than that is not possible.
I have been to a hospital with a Nordea employee to sign documents. In this instance they stood to make money from the signing so they offered themselves. Presumably if you compensate them for their time they would come to the hospital for your matter.
wolf80 wrote:For me it is weird that your father in law doesn't simply give you his own bank card and code to get the money out of the next ATM. Also NukkuMatti's solution of tranferring money to your account seems rather easy.
Using the bank card of someone else easily results in problems when the father in law dies and the actions show up in statements of the estate.


Hämeen Hitain
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by Hämeen Hitain » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:21 pm

As the OP wrote "He is very conscious and there is nothing wrong with his mind or memory, " one legal way would be the Edunvalvontavaltuutus confirmed by Maistraatti.

http://maistraatti.fi/fi/Palvelut/holho ... valtuutus/


Honest
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by Honest » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:08 pm

Can the person in hospital give written authority to use his bank card? A written authorisation with signatures of two witnesses?


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rinso
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by rinso » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:27 pm

As pointed out before, there are easy (and legal) possibilities to solve the problem.
The bank is correct to refuse any not standardized (= funny smelling) process.


betelgeuse
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by betelgeuse » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:45 pm

Honest wrote:Can the person in hospital give written authority to use his bank card? A written authorisation with signatures of two witnesses?
No.
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NukkuMatti
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Re: Nordea hiding behind the law?

Post by NukkuMatti » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:37 pm

Let me try to respond to several replies to my post.

Thank you betelgeuse for your suggestion of indeed getting an employee of the bank to the hospital.


For most of the other people that replied, please read the first post again, all (ok most) of the reasons are explained in there.

As to PJG: I do not want open access to his bank account, my Father in Law WANTS me to control and use his bank account, it is his wish, the bank wants to verify this but does not offer any solution in how.
Please note that all withdrawn money needs to be accounted for, that means every withdrawal from a cash machine and every unspecified payment, I need to get the receipt and have it signed by him. This is proper book keeping, otherwise problems arise when making the deed of estate after his passing away.

Regarding the remark why I do not just just the card, Betelgeuse answered this too, as I already did in the first post: it is illegal, a bank card is personal and it is not allowed for someone else to use it.

Further there is nothing fishy on this (I have to admit that one could think so, but) when you carefully read the first post, I already have a valtakirja, what I did not mention yet is that I already have the edunvalvontavaltakirja both signed and the last one co-signed by two witnesses that are not direct family, it is just not activated yet by the maistraati and the treating physician. So it is clear that I am the so called "trustee" of the dying man. The bank said (also in first post) that it was possible for me to get a card on my name for his account if the edunvalvontakirja would be activated by maistraatti (need of a signature from the treating physician). (this card would automatically be cancelled upon his death).

Moving money to my own bank account is from the Fishy point of view also not possible, this might get explained later during the deed of estate as illegal by shareholders.
Second reason for not moving money to my own bank account with my father in law's banking codes from his account is the fact that my family receives Toimeentulotuki, the transfer will be considered a gift (gift tax too) and therefore income so the toimeentulotuki will be reclaimed. Not a good idea for my family's financial position.

So I will get back to my first post, that it seems that the bank should have a procedure for this, like someone already suggested a signed paper with for example extra witnesses like the edunvalvontavaltakirja but not with the same effect; The problem with an activated edunvalvontavaltakirja is that my Father in Law will officially not any more being allowed to do his own decisions. That is undesirable too.

Summerized: there is no problem in getting his money out of the bank, it is just very circuitous. Getting the bank card is the best workable solution, it is just weird that the bank insists on the account holder to be physically in the bank to process this request, there should be a (verifiable) solution to this situation.

But I will indeed ask the bank if what beteljuice suggested, is possible.

thanks for the input, to be continued! :wink:


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