questions regarding unemployment benefit application

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metsämurmeli
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questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 1:45 pm

Background: I live in Finland some years now, and learned Finnish my own way. i.e. this is my first contact with KELA. I am now ready, and highly motivated to enter the work force. Yes, I know it will not be easy.

I registered as unemployed, and searching in January. I took part in an uravalmennus course recently. My Finnish is still poor, but I got my CV done in Finnish. I applied for unemployment benefits (labor market subsidies in my case) recently, and it was declined. The reason they give: in their opinion I am a full time student. Furthermore, according to them, I do not have work experience in my work history (if my translation is correct).

My questions:
At the time I registered I saw my Finnish teacher twice a week, and learned approx. 3-5 hours per day. Does that count towards "studies"?

I (unfortunately) told them, I am keeping uptodate in my field, and enhance my horizon, on edX and coursera. I explicitely told that I do not go for a degree, or even certificate in any of the courses, that I mostly just glance over them like I would read a book. I did not give hours / week in studies, since it is not studies, and I am not investing even an hour in any of the courses per week on a regular basis. I figure they see that differently. Can I fix that now, and how do I best go about it? i.e. are there some key words I can mention, or insist they take into account?

The line about the work history: "Ei samanaikaista työhistoriaan opintojen kanssa." - According to my humble translation skills that means that I do not have entries in my work history in the field of my studies. Which would of course account for the assumption that I am now studying to make up for that.

Fact is though: I am trying to get my degree accepted by Valvira. They sent me several emails insisting that if I so much as mention that I am a psychologist, and psychotherapist, I can be fined heavily, and can go to jail over it. So I am very careful to not use those 2 words. Therefore I wrote that I was working as terapeutti in my home country. I worked like 6-7 years in science in my field (documented with work certificate, and publications), and around 8 years as psychotherapist (documented with work certificate). I am afraid that their line sticks, or makes its way to Valvira. It is simply put a lie. Again, how do I best go about correcting that? I will explain the terapeutti misunderstanding, but honestly, if my translation is correct, it is pretty rich. So I wonder if that is enough.
Last edited by metsämurmeli on Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



questions regarding unemployment benefit application

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wolf80
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefits

Post by wolf80 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm

Are you otherwise enrolled at any university or school?

In general, you have to be available to seek work full time. Any education you do on the side you need to ask permission from the TE-office BEFOREHAND. That also goes for any language course, and any online-course you take. Anything that takes up your time and draws your attention away from job-seeking. No matter how beneficial it is for finding a job. The TE-Office is very strict here. You have to ask them, and if they give permission, then it is ok. And often they are rather generous if you are honest and tell them. I did a university course worth a few credits during the daytime, and they did not mind.

In practice I would not have told them about any online courses, especially if they were not with a Finnish company/ organization.

I have the same that I need to keep up in my field and also learn new skills in order to be able to have a chance on the job market. Still, when unemployed I made sure to do my 40 hours job-seeking a week, and kept notes about what I was doing when. Learning I kept to my free time only. TE-office had no problems with me doing an evening Finnish course, especially as I had paid for it myself. And the uni course I mentioned before.

It is Finland - you have to agree on something, and then you stick to that. Everything is good if you made an agreement. Never do anything without making an agreement before!! Doing something on your own without asking permission is a very bad thing. Welcome to Finland!

About Valvira - as to my understanding you cannot claim to be a psychologist or psychotherapist, but you can say that you studied psychology at university, and that you have a Master's degree in Psychology. You should also be able to say that you worked as a psychologist/psychotherapist in your home country, but maybe you should mention then that you are not accredited in Finland in order to clarify that you cannot practice.

metsämurmeli
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefits

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 3:25 pm

Thanks for the speedy answer!
wolf80 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm
Are you otherwise enrolled at any university or school?
No, I am not enrolled in any school, or university. On edX and coursera I have to kinda enlist in the course, even when taking them for free. I noticed the TE office person I saw was not impressed with me preparing for the YKI testi, but besides 3-5 hours per day there is plenty time to seek work. I also dropped those lessons during the uravalmennus course, but went to the test regardless, which was during the course.

I am not only available to seek work full time, I do so. Before the uravalmennus course my "work" was to get my CV translated, though. I doubt anyone likes to write CVs, but in a language like Finnish... How I should accomplish that without help is completely beyond me. So my Finnish lessons were mostly dedicated to my CV at the time, anyway.
wolf80 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm
Still, when unemployed I made sure to do my 40 hours job-seeking a week, and kept notes about what I was doing when.
Good idea, thanks! I find it a bit weird, that the TE person does not inform of such numbers. Granted, I have the time to read the entire KELA pages, but a lot and then some is lost in translation.
wolf80 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm
It is Finland - you have to agree on something, and then you stick to that. Everything is good if you made an agreement. Never do anything without making an agreement before!! Doing something on your own without asking permission is a very bad thing. Welcome to Finland!
I doubt that is different anywhere, when you want money from bureaucrats. :D
wolf80 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:00 pm
About Valvira - as to my understanding you cannot claim to be a psychologist or psychotherapist, but you can say that you studied psychology at university, and that you have a Master's degree in Psychology. You should also be able to say that you worked as a psychologist/psychotherapist in your home country, but maybe you should mention then that you are not accredited in Finland in order to clarify that you cannot practice.
IIRC the lines in the online form to register as job seeker are somewhat narrow, long explanations seemed not to fit. I guessed that by the fact that my master is in psychology, and I am working as therapist I might not be doing Voodoo but psychotherapy should be clear. But you are of course right, and I am stupid. That is not how the Finnish mind works. I will explain this when disputing the decision, and also send the certificates. If there are certain things above that, which would be beneficial to mention, it would be great to know!

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wolf80
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by wolf80 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:50 pm

Well, the 40 hours a week is no official number, but TE employees are happy if you fulfill that. (Have a close friend who works for the TE-office, so get a bit of info from there.). The new rule is that now you also have to apply for two jobs a week, every week, not just on average. No matter if there are jobs you can apply to or not, you have to apply to two jobs a week. Insane.

Otherwise, at the beginning of the jobseeking, you make an agreement with the TE-office where you write down everything you will do. Practically a masterplan of job-seeking. Things like that you will "actively seek employment". After I think it was 3 months you have to tick off all the points online to show that you fulfilled them. If you forget the TE-office assumes that you did not fulfill them, and you might lose your unemployment benefits. Sometimes you have to show proof.

Also languages courses fall under this point. Even though a blind man can see that a Finnish course will help you find a job. Nevertheless, if you did not ask them for permission they won't like it. It has to be in the agreement, then they are happy about it. As soon as they have the feeling that you kept something from them, that they don't see the full picture, they will make life difficult for you. Best thing is - tell them everything. EVERYTHING. They love that. Even if they don't read it all. They want to have it. And then ask them what you should do. And if you are allowed to do this or that.

So, they are not bitchy because you did the courses, they are bitchy because you did them without making an agreement about them.

What I would do in your case:
Contact the TE-office and
- Appologize for not disclosing all the side courses.
- Make sure they understand these are not university courses, and that you are not enrolled at any university, and that you are not in any sort of education program whatsoever. The courses were your hobby which you pursued in your free time! This point is vital! If they do not believe you, ask which kind of proof they would want from you.
- Make them understand you still did 40 hours a week jobseeking, and that the courses did not hinder that at all. Tell them you have notes and application letters to companies that you can deliver in case they need proof.
- Tell them you will not do anything again without further agreement. Ask them to make an agreement with you.

And then you hope you got one of the good TE-workers that is humane and not a right-wing voter.

metsämurmeli
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 5:01 pm

wolf80 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:50 pm

So, they are not bitchy because you did the courses, they are bitchy because you did them without making an agreement about them.

What I would do in your case:
Contact the TE-office and
- Appologize for not disclosing all the side courses.
- Make sure they understand these are not university courses, and that you are not enrolled at any university, and that you are not in any sort of education program whatsoever. The courses were your hobby which you pursued in your free time! This point is vital! If they do not believe you, ask which kind of proof they would want from you.
- Make them understand you still did 40 hours a week jobseeking, and that the courses did not hinder that at all. Tell them you have notes and application letters to companies that you can deliver in case they need proof.
- Tell them you will not do anything again without further agreement. Ask them to make an agreement with you.

And then you hope you got one of the good TE-workers that is humane and not a right-wing voter.
I think you misunderstood. When I registered as a job seeker I mentioned those courses in the form. I later discussed it with the TE person. There is nothing I did not disclose, there is something I probably should NOT have disclosed. I wrote all that already, that I am not enrolled, that those are not educations but merely like a book I am reading. Except the hobby thing, I have as a hobby to study psychology courses on online sites while psychology just happens to be my profession. OK, I will write that.

That is my problem. I already said all that, apart of claiming it is a hobby to do further education. They knew literally which courses I am doing, and that they are NOT any sort of education program, from the very start of our communication. I was hoping to understand what are the criteria to call something a "study" here. It IS often Universities doing those on those MOOC sites, but when you do them for free, there is literally no obligation to even look into it for a second, let alone gaining anything like ECTS, or even a friggin certificate. And TE toimisto KNOWS all this since the very start.

metsämurmeli
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 5:13 pm

But a possible "line of defense" is forming in my head. Thank you! I will check the courses, and show my progress in them, since their start. Which is like here a video, and there some notes that I read. In courses that started ages ago. Will have to check how the progress shows when I skipped half the class because it was too boring, though. Along with notes on what I did as job seeker.

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wolf80
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by wolf80 » Tue May 01, 2018 5:29 pm

What might have happened is that they saw the word 'course' and automatically decided you are doing some sort of education, and therefore cannot get unemployment benefits. Even if you wrote all of it correctly, they might have just put you in that corner and don't wanna change their mind now. They can be very stubborn once they put you in a certain category.

That's why you have to make clear from the start that it's a hobby and has nothing to do with your job and our job-seeking (even though it has). Or not mention it at all if they won't be able to find out about it.

metsämurmeli
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 01, 2018 5:49 pm

That they sure are... and I thought, my home country was somewhat stubborn.

Thanks for the help! Much appreciated!

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Piet
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by Piet » Sat May 12, 2018 6:10 pm

This whole story sounds familiar.

when I had the first interview ever with TE office and they asked me about my education, I told them that I did not finish one course, the TE-officer told me that he would not mention that because it would mean that Kela would see it that I am still studying, even though I just became jobless.

I asked to elaborate on this matter and then the TE officer told me that any not finished education mentioned, Kela takes literally as still ongoing because it is not finished (has to do with the translation I think).

Remember you are dealing with people that do not think for themselves, but just fill in on a computer form these answers. The digital form / backend of this KELA intitute does make no difference between not finished and still ongoing, it is one integer so to say, it is either a zero or a one (/in digital terms).

So your answer should have been regarding the courses, all finished without certificate! Problem solved. If you start another course, do it only with permission of TE office so you get paid even more (if you study 4 hours a day, it will get you 9 euro's extra not taxable, for that day).

Clear?? 8) :lol:
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metsämurmeli
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Re: questions regarding unemployment benefit application

Post by metsämurmeli » Tue May 15, 2018 6:04 pm

Thanks Piet. That helps a lot. Glad I did not send the answer yet.


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