Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

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suomynona.yllatot
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Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:04 pm

For among the so-called "least corrupt nations" in the world!

Another news today. And we paid the parking fee, and the penalties! :evil:

Having been here 20+ years... this seems to be a growing issue! Well, at least to some degree they are discovered and prosecuted... That I agree, still is good. Hopefully, the activities go down, and the prosecutions remain tight. I won't protect/ argue other countries where such activities are looked the other way!

Oh well! So, much for the least corrupt rankings. :roll:
Last edited by suomynona.yllatot on Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.



Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

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Beep_Boop
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Beep_Boop » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:19 pm

This post displays a complete lack of understanding for statistics, or most aspects of the real world for that matter.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


suomynona.yllatot
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:27 am

Beep_Boop wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:19 pm
... a complete lack of understanding for statistics
And can you also say "how so"? I may be wrong, cannot check now, but has not the rankings (Transparency International) been going down? If no, then my sincere apologies and I will recheck my facts and memory!

If yes, are those not based on statistics? So, if Finlands ranking and points are going down... is that a lack of my understanding of statistics? Or then are you standing by the statement, saying that there are lies, damned lies, and statistics, i.e. TI and statistics are not reliable?
Beep_Boop wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:19 pm
... most aspects of the real world for that matter.
The charges and the news are wrong? Fake? As I see it, those are reported in the real world, and Yle is among the more trusted sources of news. Are you then disputing the news and the events in question?

The post is nothing more than a concern. As much, I would like to see Finland stay on the top!


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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Upphew » Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:55 am

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:04 pm
For among the so-called "least corrupt nations" in the world!

Another news today. And we paid the parking fee, and the penalties! :evil:

Having been here 20+ years... this seems to be a growing issue! Well, at least to some degree they are discovered and prosecuted... That I agree, still is good. Hopefully, the activities go down, and the prosecutions remain tight. I won't protect/ argue other countries where such activities are looked the other way!

Oh well! So, much for the least corrupt rankings. :roll:
Theft, or rather embezzlement, not corruption. Corruption would be that the warden would take a tenner or two to not write the parking fine.
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Upphew » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:08 am

Better example would have been Pihla Viitala's house. And most likely even there no money has changed hands. Just that a celebrity gets more leeway when officials try to please them.
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Beep_Boop » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:49 am

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:27 am
And can you also say "how so"?
Absolutely! My previous comment wasn't very helpful. I'm not contesting the news piece, not at all. I'm contesting your conclusion.

Being among the least corrupted countries doesn't mean there isn't any corruption. Just because you're hearing a few cases per year doesn't mean the "cookie is crumbling". This is what I meant by the lack of understanding for statistics.

Additionally, to measure corruption, you can't merely rely on cases of individual corrupt persons embezzling. You have to take into account the practical response to such individual cases. In Finland, in most cases, corrupted persons face prosecution and their actions are generally not accepted by broader society. That's one of the reasons Finland is among the least corrupted countries, not because it has zero corrupted persons.

In this case, if these individuals were paying some city officials a cut of the money in order to buy their silence, and then they successfully pay the police to drop the preliminary investigation, then that would be a case of corruption. If that happened in many areas of society on regular bases, then I agree, the cookie would definitely be crumbling.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by inkku » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:10 pm

Upphew wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:08 am
Better example would have been Pihla Viitala's house. And most likely even there no money has changed hands. Just that a celebrity gets more leeway when officials try to please them.
According to yle.fi, it wasn't so much the issue of being celebrity rather than having family friends in the right place, the first now retired planner who drafted the case was a family friend.


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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Upphew » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:44 pm

inkku wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:10 pm
Upphew wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:08 am
Better example would have been Pihla Viitala's house. And most likely even there no money has changed hands. Just that a celebrity gets more leeway when officials try to please them.
According to yle.fi, it wasn't so much the issue of being celebrity rather than having family friends in the right place, the first now retired planner who drafted the case was a family friend.
Ah, so we are talking about nepotism rather than corruption. No wonder when six degrees of separation works for the whole world, three for US...
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suomynona.yllatot
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm

Upphew wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:55 am
Theft, or rather embezzlement, not corruption.
Upphew wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:44 pm
talking about nepotism rather than corruption
Hi Upphew, don't all these come under the banner of corruption? Wrongdoing? Or have I been reading too much of philosophy? Or should we be splitting hairs and lines? I am sure these words embezzlement, nepotism etc. bring deeper clarity, but I wonder if this is for the purpose of easing the pain?
Beep_Boop wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:49 am
Being among the least corrupted countries doesn't mean there isn't any corruption. Just because you're hearing a few cases per year doesn't mean the "cookie is crumbling"
I hear you Beep_Boop! Can I offer another view? I said the "cookie is crumbling" at a minimum on the edges. Didn't say it was crumbled or gone! Coming all the way from 2000 onward, these instances have only increased, and not even been steady! Like I said, Finland may be still on the top lists! But you also have to remember, countries, nations, civilizations do not have an end date, but a period of decline. Which hopefully is NOT the case here.

My rant: My biggest irritation is the government, the recent ones, especially the idiots that gloat with self-supremacy on honesty, lack of corruption etc. despite things looking downwards. My pet peeve is the inheritance taxes. As I see it, what you as a person have earned is yours. What you do with it is your choice. You have paid the taxes on it. If the person passes away, it is his/her tax paid money that he leaves for his purposes, for his children. Not for the #€%&/() beggars! What moral right do they have on that money? And if they don't have any moral right, and yet take it, is that not robbery/ stealing, and if so, is that not corruption. The inheritance law. "#€%&/() beggars!

A typical family, two adults, two young children, one house, two cars, and some savings, IF it were to loose the higher earning parent, in most cases, the house would be sold to pay of the inheritance tax. The safest feeling a child gets is with the parent. The second safest feeling is the home. Guess what! You do the conclusion! I wish I could respect these bas-turds.
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?


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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Upphew » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm
Hi Upphew, don't all these come under the banner of corruption? Wrongdoing? Or have I been reading too much of philosophy? Or should we be splitting hairs and lines? I am sure these words embezzlement, nepotism etc. bring deeper clarity, but I wonder if this is for the purpose of easing the pain?
Corruption, nepotism, embezzlement all fall under the banner of wrongdoing.
Is it corruption if I work for your company and sell a product and pocket a small slice or the money?
Is it corruption if I work for your company and hire my nephew instead of more capable applicant?
Lets not muddle the terms. We've seen how well that works when we label economical refugees the same mamu as professional basketball player or someone from work as a friend. Or news that one doesn't like, but are true, fake news.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm
I hear you Beep_Boop! Can I offer another view? I said the "cookie is crumbling" at a minimum on the edges. Didn't say it was crumbled or gone! Coming all the way from 2000 onward, these instances have only increased, and not even been steady! Like I said, Finland may be still on the top lists! But you also have to remember, countries, nations, civilizations do not have an end date, but a period of decline. Which hopefully is NOT the case here.
Remembering the times when the head honchos from town hall regularly visited sports happenings in a box paid by some ceo or owner of a company, or some week long seminars in Lapland... I'd say the increase has been negative aka a drastic decrease. No more "you should tone down your actions" behind closed doors among peers. More likely screaming headlines in Seiska, IS and IL. Even the free booze among b2b crowd has dried up. No more free usage of company credit card. Every salesman had one in good old days and the accounting was _lax_.

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm
My rant: My biggest irritation is the government, the recent ones, especially the idiots that gloat with self-supremacy on honesty, lack of corruption etc. despite things looking downwards. My pet peeve is the inheritance taxes. As I see it, what you as a person have earned is yours. What you do with it is your choice. You have paid the taxes on it. If the person passes away, it is his/her tax paid money that he leaves for his purposes, for his children. Not for the #€%&/() beggars! What moral right do they have on that money? And if they don't have any moral right, and yet take it, is that not robbery/ stealing, and if so, is that not corruption. The inheritance law. "#€%&/() beggars!
What moral right the children have on the money? Or the dead? At least with our current system we don't have (many) beggars. Maybe the Green Peace wouldn't have to be begging on the streets if they could snatch tax free inheritances...
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:36 pm
A typical family, two adults, two young children, one house, two cars, and some savings, IF it were to loose the higher earning parent, in most cases, the house would be sold to pay of the inheritance tax. The safest feeling a child gets is with the parent. The second safest feeling is the home. Guess what! You do the conclusion! I wish I could respect these bas-turds.
And that is the string that insurance companies pull when they sell the life insurances.
Then again typical single parent can't handle two kids, cars and a house. At least by my anecdotal evidence there isn't enough energy to do the chores and move from house to apartment is happening rather sooner than later.
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Beep_Boop
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Beep_Boop » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:16 pm

Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Remembering the times when the head honchos from town hall regularly visited sports happenings in a box paid by some ceo or owner of a company, or some week long seminars in Lapland... I'd say the increase has been negative aka a drastic decrease. No more "you should tone down your actions" behind closed doors among peers. More likely screaming headlines in Seiska, IS and IL. Even the free booze among b2b crowd has dried up. No more free usage of company credit card. Every salesman had one in good old days and the accounting was _lax_.
I'm of a similar opinion.

These days, we just have more exposure to media, which naturally means you'll hear more instances of the bad things. This is similar to people's false belief that we live in especially violent times while all evidence points to the contrary; we are living in the most peaceful time in human history, but we have an unprecedented access to information from sources which make money based on outrage which increases the frequency of mentions of bad things which leads people to incorrectly concluding that bad things are happening more often.

I don't blame people, though. It's a natural human thing. People who grew up in the "good old days" didn't have access to YouTube and Facebook to hear about every little outrageous thing somebody did somewhere.
Every case is unique. You can't measure the result of your application based on arbitrary anecdotes online.


suomynona.yllatot
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:05 pm

Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Corruption, nepotism, embezzlement all fall under the banner of wrongdoing.
Just woke up! Fair enough Upphew, I see it a bit differently, I see corruption [of the heart/ mind] that brings the wrongdoing, whatever be the refined heading. There are some questions of your views below.
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Is it corruption if I work for your company and sell a product and pocket a small slice or the money?
Is it corruption if I work for your company and hire my nephew instead of more capable applicant?
Is there such a thing as conscience, a.k.a. the voice in the head? If yes, and it causes a sense of guilt, then whatever the act, whether it is nepotism or stealing, yes, it is corruption at least in my thinking.

But of course, I can see your point, i.e. the need for differentiation. Yes, Mamu strikes a deep chord! :evil: I usually respond in a scathingly impolite manner!
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
I'd say the increase has been negative aka a drastic decrease
Beep_Boop wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:16 pm
we just have more exposure to media,
Fair enough, IF the intent is that it is ONLY the visibility that has increased, but the corruption itself is going down, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. As I see it, the wrongdoings in the country are on the uprise, especially in recruitments involving non-Finnish names. Am a hiring manager and unit head, I should know.

Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
What moral right the children have on the money?
1. Who would/ should have the moral right to decide who has the right on your money? Don't I have the right to decide what happens to my assets?

2. That being said, whether you believe in creation or evolution, aren't family & children is the ONLY intrinsic and inherent institution (that is where inheritance comes from). Rest is more or less manipulation and control.

3. Do you have kids Upphew? I do. Don't children suffer the inheritance, both good and bad? They inherit hereditary diseases and strengths, DNA and genes. What makes money, or the labour of their parents somebody else's property? Who gives anybody the right to forcibly take their parents givings from them? Particularly those that were lawfully earned? As for me, I earn for my family and me, in that order. Then comes everything else.

Who owns your labour? And who would you want have a right on yours? Look, I am not saying there should be no limits, but the previous example, small family, kids, house, is more than the average, not the exception in terms of wealth. To rob them into poverty, just because the government has a title of supremacy...!
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Then again typical single parent can't handle two kids, cars and a house. At least by my anecdotal evidence there isn't enough energy to do the chores and move from house to apartment is happening rather sooner than later.
Again, then Upphew, whose choice should it be? The remaining parent and children re-organising their life? Or under forcible duress? Lose the spouse, lose everything? Be at the mercy of the state? I know cases where people lost *everything* or went into debt and had to agree for a tax adjustment.
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
And that is the string that insurance companies pull when they sell the life insurances.
Not sure if this is taxed/ subject to inheritance. Any idea?
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Or the dead?
Why should necrophilia be then illegal? Or why respect for the dead?

Combine the two above, and you'll see the a world that loses complete hold on itself, and drops into chaos. Would you want to live in such a world? The four horsemen (YouTube), is more about the financial systems; however, the first twenty min. or so talks about when a society starts to decline.
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
At least with our current system we don't have (many) beggars.
I pass the road straight on from Sornäinen every day. Would you care to visit the morning hours to see the queue for food!
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Maybe the Green Peace wouldn't have to be begging on the streets if they could snatch tax free inheritances...
Why then stop with Green Peace?
My school of thought is this: That Green Peace raises the money for the cause it believes in, and those that share that cause contribute to it. If you don't, then you don't pay for it either, living or dead.

If all such "charities" got a forcible share, how would it affect your status and assets? And why wait till you are gone Upphew? If everything then belonged to the state... why do the west then condemn e.g. communism? And then if your living labour, and your assets when you are dead belong to the state, what then, Upphew, does it mean to be human?
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?


Upphew
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by Upphew » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:38 am

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:05 pm
Upphew wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm
Corruption, nepotism, embezzlement all fall under the banner of wrongdoing.
Just woke up! Fair enough Upphew, I see it a bit differently, I see corruption [of the heart/ mind] that brings the wrongdoing, whatever be the refined heading. There are some questions of your views below.
Fair enough. You used corruption in broader sense. That just clashed with my perception what is corruption. Especially when used as a metric.

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:05 pm
Fair enough, IF the intent is that it is ONLY the visibility that has increased, but the corruption itself is going down, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. As I see it, the wrongdoings in the country are on the uprise, especially in recruitments involving non-Finnish names. Am a hiring manager and unit head, I should know.
I suppose you haven't gotten fine Cognac as the starter for an interview? I've brought a bottle with regards from my dad back in the day, when I was too young to even buy a bottle from Alko. Nepotism and corruption anyone? I have hard times believing that would fly nowadays.
I've been rubbing shoulders with city officials in hockey games, now they decline invitations as it would look bad.
And as I said, long gone are the days when you went to trade show to booze people up and to get the same treatment from others.
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suomynona.yllatot
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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:49 pm

Upphew wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:38 am
I suppose you haven't gotten fine Cognac as the starter for an interview?
Nope, never! In fact, I have been notorious and unapologetic for that. Some vendors tried to send me a bottle of wine or something for Christmas. Well, for one, I wouldn't even go to the reception when notified, but would send a very kind email thanking them but very clearly explain that I would not accept anything material even if insignificant, and simply state that the wishes were enough, i.e. even though most companies had a limit of something like 50e.

I cannot stand corruption, especially in leadership, whether mine or the government.

Personally, for me, as regards inheritance, there is nothing worse than profiting off the death of a person, while subjugating the surviving family to even more losses.
Oh well, wait, there are worse things to do, scared to write it down here, may give the government some ideas!


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Re: Corruption... and so the cookie crumbles!

Post by undertakerfreak » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:20 pm

Can someone just get this clown out of here already? Literally all he does is piss, bitch, whine and moan about Finland and how much he hates it. This serves no purpose for people coming here looking to know more about Finland. What an £$€¤%&.


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