WORK IN FINLAND

[shrecher]

Let's put it this way. Take a long look at complaints aired in this forum...

I think you misunderstood the reasons of the complains. People who can't find the job here won't also find it with good Finnish. Finland is very difficult for newbie. It is getting far more difficult for foreigns. Among them, Finnish companies look for talented and experience professionals.

How many can be squeezed down to this simple message "Things in Finland do not work the way I would want to!"

Hmm. I can't say so. All regulations are flexible and logical. Compare it to US and you will see the huge diff. All acts are translated to English (see finlex). But what is most important, they designed to be understood from common sense.

[Hank W.]

Why do you think that immigrants want anybody to bend over backwards? Why do you presume that people think that the sun shines out of their arses?

Ah, because of this.

and formed without the benefit of seeing the situation from the immigrant side.

See now, the immigrants making demands or defining the rules. As Karhunkoski says there:

Remember they have had a highly turbulent history, have been kicked around by both neighbours and their independence is a relatively new thing and something of which they are rightly proud. (...) Finns are a stubborn people and strong marketing of Finnish nationalism has, over many decades, produced generations of people who strongly believe in the capability of Finland to look after itself without interference from the outside,

The pitfall you are falling into - and stepping on the "native toes" inside is this "outside interference". And it is - as said before a social construct of what is percieved as outside interference. You don't define it - the ugric inside the skull of the locals defines it. Your logic is impeccable - for a cosmopolite Englishman. However you need to delve into the ugric mind to understand why your presence is tolerated until you cross the threshold. And once you cross the threshold like Antstar asks

Do you have a twin personality?

Suomi ottaa avoimesti vastaan vaikutteita vieraista kulttuureista.

[rinso]

For many of us assimilation is a non-issue. I'm 100% with shrecher on this topic. Sure, it's nice if it happens along the way, but assimilation is a means to an end, not an aim in itself.

As an immigrant in the boondocks I know from experience that assimilation is very important. And the Finnish language isn't even the most important part of it (most of the locals don't speak that language themselves ) but "acting Finnish". You cannot survive in the countryside without the occasional help from your neighbours. If you choose to ignore your neighbours, you'll end up with a lot of insolvable problems.
Off course in Helsinki and other bigger cities, the necessity to assimilate is less. But it would be unwise not to try if you can.

[Tiwaz]

Let's put it this way. Take a long look at complaints aired in this forum...

I think you misunderstood the reasons of the complains. People who can't find the job here won't also find it with good Finnish. Finland is very difficult for newbie. It is getting far more difficult for foreigns. Among them, Finnish companies look for talented and experience professionals.

Actually their odds would be reasonable if they spoke the language. There are very limited areas where language is not at least problematic. On many it makes it impossible to work properly.

Or do you say that doctor who can't speak same language as patient is good idea?

How many can be squeezed down to this simple message "Things in Finland do not work the way I would want to!"

Hmm. I can't say so. All regulations are flexible and logical. Compare it to US and you will see the huge diff. All acts are translated to English (see finlex). But what is most important, they designed to be understood from common sense.

Yes, but people do not either pay attention to it, or assume that finnish officials interpret them the same way.

It is not laws or practices as such, but people refusing to understand that it is another country, different culture and different way to do things.
For example remember ridgemd or whatever and his advices on how to handle real estate business?

He stubbornly refused to realise his advices do not work in Finland.

Different country, different culture, different way to make things work. But it just does not sink in to some people. They want to have things work same way they did in Whateveristan. When it ends up with them in trouble, they whine.

Many ask advice nicely, but great many just bitch and whine that Finland is not like Whateveristan.

[Hank W.]

Words of wisdom:

People who can't find the job here won't also find it with good Finnish. Finland is very difficult for newbie. It is getting far more difficult for foreigns. Among them, Finnish companies look for talented and experience professionals.

Exactly. But the reason for this "difficulty" is not that the person is unskilled/unexperienced/stupid/naive/wrong place/wrong time/with wrong expectations - its because Finland is racist and xenophobic and Finns are racists and because he could find a job in 5 minutes in Germany...

How many can be squeezed down to this simple message "Things in Finland do not work the way I would want to!"

Hmm. I can't say so. All regulations are flexible and logical. Compare it to US and you will see the huge diff. All acts are translated to English (see finlex). But what is most important, they designed to be understood from common sense.

Well yes, thats the part of the problem. people want to hear whjat they want to hear - not what reads there clearly. In the USA you can hire a lawyer that explains black dog into a white cat. In Finland - it reads there clearly - but it is not what I wanted/expected/what I wished...
What I like in the Finnish law is that you can / are supposed to understand the basics with that 9th grade education. Of course knowing the culture helps, but you know your position sort of...

[Hank W.]

Yes, but people do not either pay attention to it, or assume that finnish officials interpret them the same way. It is not laws or practices as such, but people refusing to understand that it is another country, different culture and different way to do things.

This "assuming" bit is the key issue... you really need to know the "local culture" and assume nothing. Otherwise you end up in deep trouble...
A kiss on the street...
So according to "immigrant logic" Dubai is racist and xenophobic and whatnot primitive oasis.
According to "Finnish logic" the girl was stupid (naive) as she assumed you could act in the oasis like in Finland.

As it says there in the comments - "the law is unfathomable and for us totally absurd, however it is their law and when you are in other places you have to obey their laws and moral codes"

People ought to be glad we don't flog for breaches in the moral code like speaking loudly in public transport - we just stare

[shrecher]

Words of wisdom:

People who can't find the job here won't also find it with good Finnish. Finland is very difficult for newbie. It is getting far more difficult for foreigns. Among them, Finnish companies look for talented and experience professionals.

Exactly. But the reason for this "difficulty" is not that the person is unskilled/unexperienced/stupid/naive/wrong place/wrong time/with wrong expectations - its because Finland is racist and xenophobic and Finns are racists and because he could find a job in 5 minutes in Germany...

If person is 23 years old, graduated an Greek university, and looking job here without any experience what his chance to find the job even with lever 3 Finnish? Answer is .1% in the best case. He is unskilled/unexperienced and he is unknown. People, don't come here while you don't have anything to sell. Also don't come to earn experience until you have solid and stable carrier in your home country. However, not many people want to come here after they are meaningfully in they home country, why -- salary/taxation slash all profit.

In Finland - it reads there clearly - but it is not what I wanted/expected/what I wished...
What I like in the Finnish law is that you can / are supposed to understand the basics with that 9th grade education.

+1.

[Hank W.]

If person is 23 years old, graduated an Greek university, and looking job here without any experience what his chance to find the job even with lever 3 Finnish? Answer is .1% in the best case. He is unskilled/unexperienced and he is unknown. People, don't come here while you don't have anything to sell.

Well, that is what we say, but then its "why all the negativity"

Also don't come to earn experience until you have solid and stable carrier in your home country.

Well, I'd say do come if you are doing it "for the experience" and "have nothing to lose", and say you get a position via your university/international exchange. "Getting your foot in the door" is one of the most important things here.

[Hank W.]

[rinso]

If person is 23 years old, graduated an Greek university, and looking job here without any experience what his chance to find the job even with lever 3 Finnish? Answer is .1% in the best case. He is unskilled/unexperienced and he is unknown. People, don't come here while you don't have anything to sell. Also don't come to earn experience until you have solid and stable carrier in your home country. However, not many people want to come here after they are meaningfully in they home country, why -- salary/taxation slash all profit.

Yes another catch 22. You need a career abroad the get a starting possibility here, but if you have one, why bother?

[raamv]

It is bloody arrogant and rather stupid to presume that natives living in their nation will always bend over backwards to appease your immigrant ass.
No matter how gilt you think it is.

1. From informal point of view. I have to select between work or study Finnish language. I should point, the result of my work makes the country competitive, creates other working places. Finnish managers don't require Finnish language skill. Almost all major Finnish companies set the English as official language. I guess this is very clear if people arrived here for work, then they effort and contribution are most important for Finnish nation. it far more overweights the language skill.

2. From formal point of view. Finnish language is not required here to live and work. Permanent permit or work permit are granted regardless of Finnish language skill. However, It is required for getting citizenship. Finnish state made its position very clearly.

For your point 1.
Have you ever had a personal discussion regarding the development of the people reporting to you?
Have you ever sat in an YT? If not, you will not be saying the thing highlighted in bold..
2. Hmm and what when you are wanting to fill out those dozen or so forms for renting/buying a house, ( know what you are signing?), pension plans? ( oh yes you dont think long term), etc etc..

[sinikala]

Why do you think that immigrants want anybody to bend over backwards? Why do you presume that people think that the sun shines out of their arses?

Ah, because of this.

and formed without the benefit of seeing the situation from the immigrant side.

See now, the immigrants making demands or defining the rules.

No, that's you misunderstanding what I posted. I make no demands of the locals other than they pay me a decent wage.

I was gently suggesting that Tizwaz needs to get out a bit and be an immigrant himself, then he'll stand a better understand that 90% of what he has been writing has little or no basis in fact, especially not the stuff about assimilation. As he did not respond to the question, then it suggests he has never lived outside of Finland. Am I correct in this Tizwaz?

As you Hank have at least worked outside of Finland (you were at sea IIRC?) you at least have experience of being on the other side of the fence and can put forward something resembling an informed opinion about not being a native.

Tizwaz however, seems to be talking out of his hat and confuse the odd HBS whiner with the need for Finland to attract skilled professionals.

If person is 23 years old, graduated an Greek university, and looking job here without any experience what his chance to find the job even with lever 3 Finnish? Answer is .1% in the best case. He is unskilled/unexperienced and he is unknown. People, don't come here while you don't have anything to sell.

Well, that is what we say, but then its "why all the negativity"

Also don't come to earn experience until you have solid and stable carrier in your home country.

Well, I'd say do come if you are doing it "for the experience" and "have nothing to lose", and say you get a position via your university/international exchange. "Getting your foot in the door" is one of the most important things here.

And the point is that Finland with a high proportion of introspective rednecks, present company excepted, who would rather not employ anyone than take on an unknown foreigner, is losing out to the likes of Denmark, where in order to attract skilled key-workers they offer tax breaks as a sweetner. I'm not suggesting Finland should offer tax-breaks... it's all needed to spend on that legendary education system, Helsinki's transport network, and politican's phone bills for text messaging strippers

It is not laws or practices as such, but people refusing to understand that it is another country, different culture and different way to do things. For example remember ridgemd or whatever and his advices on how to handle real estate business?
He stubbornly refused to realise his advices do not work in Finland.

Perhaps the irony is lost on you, but as much as whoever was talking about real estate had no experience of real estate in Finland, neither do have any experience of being a foreigner in Finland. a fair bit of what you are writing is at best hearsay, at worst guesswork. Please tell me how many years you spent living in other countries? How long it took you to master the language and how long it took you to assimilate?

[raamv]

Without the Finnish cultural understanding, there is also a ceiling at work.. You are a normal worker in a Finnish company..When you start to even try to speak Finnish, the respect level rises to an enormous level!! and you are then treated as one of em!! ( In Sweden, its more like an insult to Sweden and its culture if an immigrant doenst talk Swedish within a few years. Its really bad in Japan too).
Its the same thing in Germany ( try living in a small village..the immigrant suddenly gets turned into the village idiot), Spain, France..etc..
so Why should Finland be any different? Those English speaking skills are good for them rich tourists

[Hank W.]

As you Hank have at least worked outside of Finland (you were at sea IIRC?) you at least have experience of being on the other side of the fence and can put forward something resembling an informed opinion about not being a native.

Yeah, living in the trailer park sharing a compound with Mexicans and hearing "you can't put white people live there" from the most glorious non-racist non-xenophobic whiteneck multiculturalist nation with peanutbutter and justice for all And the ship was 900 people of 200+ nationalities and 72 languages... nice pecking orders these multiculturalists have we gave up in the 60's So yeah, no me joda... cadas los dias a todos los gentes mierda igual.

So have you been a "foreigner in the UK"? Nobody is a prophet in their hometown.

[antstar]

Without the Finnish cultural understanding, there is also a ceiling at work.. You are a normal worker in a Finnish company..When you start to even try to speak Finnish, the respect level rises to an enormous level!! and you are then treated as one of em!! ( In Sweden, its more like an insult to Sweden and its culture if an immigrant doenst talk Swedish within a few years. Its really bad in Japan too).
Its the same thing in Germany ( try living in a small village..the immigrant suddenly gets turned into the village idiot), Spain, France..etc..
so Why should Finland be any different? Those English speaking skills are good for them rich tourists

i'm having abit of trouble understanding this argument, when you state "cultural understanding" are you refering to people outside of Europe? or are you just meaning the language barrier itself?
I have not heard people refusing point-blank to learn the language just as we all know it terribly difficult to work and learn the Finish language. The same can not be said for your other examples whixch are considerably easier to learn. I seriously think that if i spoke fluent Finnish i could pass easily as a Finn.