Survival with a useless degree

[Karhunkoski]

I am not saying teaching finnish is arranged well in Finland.

Yes, it most definitely isn't well arranged.

Which, in the end, is problem of immigrant.

Well no actually, I think it is everyones' problem. The government obviously thinks it's important to help immigrants learn Finnish, that's why they offer the language courses - didn't Matti Vanhanen recently calculate that to maintain the current balance of tax/benefits in Finland, the country will need 2 million more working taxpayers in 15 years time. Even if he slipped up on his maths, and the figure is only 1 million, that is still a lot of people that need to learn Finnish quickly.

So now we know how important this Finnish language learning is, it's clearly rather important that they get it right, don't you think? Taking the arrogant "speak Finnish or sod off" attitude isn't very useful for Finland, is it now.... Apart from that, I rather object to my tax money being wasted on poor quality teaching of the Finnish language.



(Sorry, I did briefly skim through the rest of your post Tiwaz, but couldn't really see what you were trying to say, whether the words were aimed at me personally, or just a random eruption.)

[Tiwaz]

Well no actually, I think it is everyones' problem. The government obviously thinks it's important to help immigrants learn Finnish, that's why they offer the language courses - didn't Matti Vanhanen recently calculate that to maintain the current balance of tax/benefits in Finland, the country will need 2 million more working taxpayers in 15 years time. Even if he slipped up on his maths, and the figure is only 1 million, that is still a lot of people that need to learn Finnish quickly.

So now we know how important this Finnish language learning is, it's clearly rather important that they get it right, don't you think? Taking the arrogant "speak Finnish or sod off" attitude isn't very useful for Finland, is it now.... Apart from that, I rather object to my tax money being wasted on poor quality teaching of the Finnish language.



(Sorry, I did briefly skim through the rest of your post Tiwaz, but couldn't really see what you were trying to say, whether the words were aimed at me personally, or just a random eruption.)

Problem is, learning languages is something that takes place in head of person. It is impossible to make person learn new language if they lack the motivation. You could provide them with incredible education and still it would fail.

As opposed, people who have motivation learn even if they have minimal to no access to proper courses. Just look at Rob A who is rather impressive in his grasp of finnish despite lack of access to finnish course (to my knowledge).

It is motivation problem, not teaching problem. Using money is going nowhere if immigrants are not motivated to learn. That is problem that has to be dealt with, not actual education.

Also, those "we need 1 million worker" are just pathetic !"#¤%. We have huge amount of unemployed and factories keep closing doors as we speak, spewing out more unemployed.

What Matti and specially corporations say between lines is this:

"We would like to have 2 million highly educated people with experience who are willing to work in substandard conditions for peanuts."

Of course, this is impossible equation. But it has never stopped employers before from wanting the impossible. And with EU and all this "globalisation" crap going on, they have found some of those impossible workers from pisspoor eastern nations.

It is same as "lack" of wood in Finland. Finland could cover need of it's entire forest industry from finnish forests. Problem is that companies would want to buy the wood at such cheap price that no sensible owner wants to sell. (after all, after cutting forest down you will face decades of expenses from replanting and taking care of it. it is about 80 year cycle between clear cuttings)

[easily-lost]

a foreigner who cannot speak finnish has a handicap. no legs. so either they grow legs or fess up they need the short bus. and that fessing up needs to be done in the persons own head.

There are basically two groups of people who learn Finnish, one is for living, the other is for fun. I belong to the latter. So, studying/speaking Finnish makes me feel good for learning new things, and of course deepens my understanding of Finnish culture as I live here in Finland at the moment, but I certainly don't feel "handicapped" or "lower" for not speaking fluent Finnish. And from my perspective, finding a (decent) job without speaking Finnish is not THAT difficult. It can be hard everywhere, so it doesn't make Finland THAT special in this regard.

[mrjimsfc]

What Matti and specially corporations say between lines is this:

"We would like to have 2 million highly educated people with experience who are willing to work in substandard conditions for peanuts."

DUHH!!! Why do you think there are so many jobs that are being "outsourced"? One major city in some countries could provide all two million people who meet the above requirements. Peanuts are good when the alternative is starvation.

[Rob A.]

What Matti and specially corporations say between lines is this:

"We would like to have 2 million highly educated people with experience who are willing to work in substandard conditions for peanuts."

DUHH!!! Why do you think there are so many jobs that are being "outsourced"? One major city in some countries could provide all two million people who meet the above requirements. Peanuts are good when the alternative is starvation.

....and this is why I'm a "socialist" or a "leftie" or whatever you want to call it...capitalism without regulation and the guidance of some sort of socially responsible entity is simply a "race to the bottom"... Profits must always be maximized and there are only two ways to do that..."buy low and sell high"...in other words raise your prices or cut your costs...

Innovation can allow you to increase your revenues...new products and services...and outsourcing to, say India or China, can allow you to lower your costs....Now what would happen if company doesn't consider that??? What would happen if Nokia didn't manufacture its cell phones in China?? I think someone would soon be eating their lunch..... Only government (or, I should say, governmental-type entities) entities...either at the national or international level can deal with this....

But, "it ain't easy"....the pressure is always on.... Capital can only be "responsible" to it's "shareholders"...whatever form they take...any "corporate citizenship" initiatives are merely public relations exercises....

History constantly teaches this lesson, whether its in the form of "latifundia" in South America, "feudalism" in Medieval Europe, the "mercantilism" of a few hundred years ago...or "modern capitalism"... But I understand why so many people support the current economic system...they have concluded, perhaps,correctly in some cases, and perhaps, incorrectly in other cases, that it is in their own interest to do so...

But I'm waiting for more people to "wake up and smell the coffee"....however, I'm patient, fortunately...because I think it will be a long wait....

[Tiwaz]

What Matti and specially corporations say between lines is this:

"We would like to have 2 million highly educated people with experience who are willing to work in substandard conditions for peanuts."

DUHH!!! Why do you think there are so many jobs that are being "outsourced"? One major city in some countries could provide all two million people who meet the above requirements. Peanuts are good when the alternative is starvation.

Point is that employers have unrealistic expectations for workforce.

You just do not live with peanuts in Finland.
Thus, nobody is insane enough to work for them.

It's common for finnish employer to look for employee who:
Has doctorate, 10 years of experience from similar duties, is teamplayer who can easily alone take care of large projects, is 20 years old and only wants salary of person without any of those qualifications.

[pierrot]

What Matti and specially corporations say between lines is this:

"We would like to have 2 million highly educated people with experience who are willing to work in substandard conditions for peanuts."

DUHH!!! Why do you think there are so many jobs that are being "outsourced"? One major city in some countries could provide all two million people who meet the above requirements. Peanuts are good when the alternative is starvation.

Point is that employers have unrealistic expectations for workforce.

You just do not live with peanuts in Finland.
Thus, nobody is insane enough to work for them.

It's common for finnish employer to look for employee who:
Has doctorate, 10 years of experience from similar duties, is teamplayer who can easily alone take care of large projects, is 20 years old and only wants salary of person without any of those qualifications.

Hey, you forgot that the candidate should also speak 4 languages fluently and have 12 years experience abroad. During the trial period of 12 months he/she will of course work for free

[Mihaela]

It's common for finnish employer to look for employee who:
Has doctorate, 10 years of experience from similar duties, is teamplayer who can easily alone take care of large projects, is 20 years old and only wants salary of person without any of those qualifications.

Hey, you forgot that the candidate should also speak 4 languages fluently and have 12 years experience abroad. During the trial period of 12 months he/she will of course work for free

Wow, so this is common for every country I guess, because it is the same thing for Bulgaria...

[Upphew]

Problem is, learning languages is something that takes place in head of person. It is impossible to make person learn new language if they lack the motivation. You could provide them with incredible education and still it would fail.

As opposed, people who have motivation learn even if they have minimal to no access to proper courses. Just look at Rob A who is rather impressive in his grasp of finnish despite lack of access to finnish course (to my knowledge).

It is motivation problem, not teaching problem. Using money is going nowhere if immigrants are not motivated to learn. That is problem that has to be dealt with, not actual education.

Hear, hear! We have very good example of that in Finland: mandatory swedish/finnish courses beginning at 7th grade. I would bet that at least third of pupils would do better, if they could choose the language to study. I have hazy memories of trying to learn swedish (and germany... thanks to my parents who thought that i have head for languages because was doing all right in english classes... and this was only because at that time there weren't many translated role playing games) and that learning process was like drinking tar for me. I hated every minute of every class and my grades showed that. In retrospect it is shame that I didn't put any effort in learning other languages than english, because I think it would now be easier to learn languages that I am interested in...

[Pursuivant]

PALVELUKSEEN HALUTAAN Orja. Virkasuhteeseen ilman virkaa. Palkkaus A1 (120-130 e/kk). Edellytämme alle 20 vuoden ikää, korkeakoulututkintoa, 15 vuoden työkokemusta, joustavuutta, omaa autoa, ABCEDFG ajokorttia, matkustusvalmiutta, kielitaitoa (väh. engl, saks, ruots, ransk, ven.), muu kielitaito lasketaan eduksi. Hakemukset eiliseen mennessä.