how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

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inkku
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by inkku » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:02 am

Helsingin sanomat today, page A6.

Very similar case, accrued overtime for years and harassment. The claimant, a former tax inspector, lost the case and has to pay the court expenses, e20.000.



Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

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Rick1

Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by Rick1 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:28 am

jas_rho wrote:Go to your union for advice. That's what they are there for and that's why you pay your dues. They have the lawyers that know all about this and know what you are entitled to and your rights. Put your energy there. And like everyone here says, this isn't wonderful USA where you can sue for tripping over your own shoelace. You aren't gonna get millions but perhaps you are entitled to something. Good luck :thumbsup:
Wise words as from Inkku, I was a little bit too direct but asking for a million in damages in Finland? Well the newspapers will have something to write about here :wink:

AldenG
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by AldenG » Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:15 pm

Here's a related story I stumbled on while following someone's link in a different topic.

Rautaruukki Denies Pushing Workers To Suicide

Finland has enlightened requirements for ergonomics and worker well-being, it seems to me, but rather toothless enforcement. Particularly when it comes to big industrial companies, they are very chummy with the government and always have been. They tend to get what they want.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

Upphew
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by Upphew » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:41 pm

AldenG wrote:Here's a related story I stumbled on while following someone's link in a different topic.

Rautaruukki Denies Pushing Workers To Suicide

Finland has enlightened requirements for ergonomics and worker well-being, it seems to me, but rather toothless enforcement. Particularly when it comes to big industrial companies, they are very chummy with the government and always have been. They tend to get what they want.
Well... suicide seems a bit harsh reaction, imho. They shifted from 5 shift to 4 shift work, that is harder to workers, but is it that much harder? Any shift workers care to tell their experience?
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karel
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by karel » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:56 pm

Upphew wrote:
AldenG wrote:Here's a related story I stumbled on while following someone's link in a different topic.

Rautaruukki Denies Pushing Workers To Suicide

Finland has enlightened requirements for ergonomics and worker well-being, it seems to me, but rather toothless enforcement. Particularly when it comes to big industrial companies, they are very chummy with the government and always have been. They tend to get what they want.
Well... suicide seems a bit harsh reaction, imho. They shifted from 5 shift to 4 shift work, that is harder to workers, but is it that much harder? Any shift workers care to tell their experience?

It's an attitude problem. I've worked in 3 shifts for 10 years. 5-day week early from 6-14, 5-day week late from 14-22, 4-night week night from 22-6. When it was hectic, which was more often the case than not, we would have a 6-day week early, 6-day week late, 5-night week night. When it was really hectic, which happened quite frequently, we also had a 6-night week which started on Sunday night. And after the nightshift, regardless if it was 4, 5 or 6 nights, we were there again on Monday morning at 6 in the early shift.
Some people just really REALLY want to complain.



Things have changed in the past couple of years. Shifts are like holidays these days, when you get a 3-night nightshift and then a week off.
Pussies!




Apologies on forehand for anyone who's feeling insulted.
I'm a bit in an obstinate mood tonight.

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rinso
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by rinso » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:03 am

I've worked in 3, 4 and 5 shifts. (and even 24hr shifts at the fire service)
5 shifts are easy, but 3 and 4 shifts are not really a big deal.
You have to adjust your free time to the work schedule (sometimes inconvenient). If you do, there is very little extra pressure.

Upphew
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by Upphew » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:35 am

I read more about Rautaruukki's shift schedule, it seems to be nasty: mmeennffmmeennff... (m=mornign, e=evening, n=night and f=free) and once in 1½ months there are 4 free days.
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AldenG
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by AldenG » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:05 pm

Upphew wrote:I read more about Rautaruukki's shift schedule, it seems to be nasty: mmeennffmmeennff... (m=mornign, e=evening, n=night and f=free) and once in 1½ months there are 4 free days.
Is it one of these?

I'm having trouble figuring out what the actual hours are. The letters in your pattern each represent more than a day, don't they? Like a week, maybe? If they're days, there is essentially NO circadian rhythm left and it's quite likely these guys will die young of heart attacks, cancers and other conditions promoted by biological stress. And yes, depression should be widespread and often severe. As though there weren't enough of that already in sub-Arctic regions...
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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sinikala
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by sinikala » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:40 pm

Upphew wrote:I read more about Rautaruukki's shift schedule, it seems to be nasty: mmeennffmmeennff... (m=mornign, e=evening, n=night and f=free) and once in 1½ months there are 4 free days.
mmeennff seems a bit harsh. Our technicians, when required to run round the clock, work mmeennffff on an 8 hour shift between 06:00-14:00-22:00.

I'm sure it screws up their sleep but
- We work 40 hours in 168 = 24% of our week
- They work 48 hours in 240 = 20% of their week. Effectively they work 33.6 hours per 7 day period
- We get a 2 day weekend off for every 5 worked
- they work 6 on 4 off, so get 2 days off for every 3 worked ... or in terms of a 7 day working week, they get 2.8 days off per 7 day period.
- They get a premium for doing shift work
- We don't get overtime either, unless abroad on a client's site, then we can bill the client for overtime.

For skilled manual labour, they get pretty well paid.
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Upphew
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by Upphew » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:12 pm

AldenG wrote:Is it one of these?

I'm having trouble figuring out what the actual hours are. The letters in your pattern each represent more than a day, don't they? Like a week, maybe? If they're days, there is essentially NO circadian rhythm left and it's quite likely these guys will die young of heart attacks, cancers and other conditions promoted by biological stress. And yes, depression should be widespread and often severe. As though there weren't enough of that already in sub-Arctic regions...
No, 1 letter = 1 day. So m = 06-14, e = 14-22 and n = 22-06. That is why I backed a bit in my stance that it shouldn't be that hard, cause that seems bit hard to me and I can only guess what it is for 10 or 20 years older people.
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AldenG
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by AldenG » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:44 pm

I never did shift-work, but I spontaneously did other stuff equally bad or worse with sleep and working hours in my 20's and 30's -- even into my 40's. I don't think medicine knew as much a few decades back about the life-long effects, though. Things we do/did like that in our 20's and 30's still present health risks in our 40's, 50's, and 60s. The really dangerous thing is that when young, it doesn't necessarily feel bad. We either don't receive or don't notice the feedback from our bodies. And even if we did, at that age there is such an unreality to concepts like "40's and 50's" that we probably wouldn't heed it if we noticed it. But whether the irregularity feels bad or not, it runs out the biological clock faster than normal.

Two of the things that most seem to hold true for long-lived, physically healthy people (at least in North America) are a long history of very regular sleep hours and daily walking. I suppose walking isn't a common deficit in Finland. But it's interesting that for long life, running, skiing, etc., appear to be no better than walking and sometimes worse. (Heavier exercise can have other benefits, of course.) Genetics are more important and a bad diet or alcohol abuse can make themselves more important than sleep and walking. There aren't too many other things more important, though. Inner peace, I suppose.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

jas_rho
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by jas_rho » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:55 pm

I guess this worker had a tough employer as well. She died from working too much overtime:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/200910 ... 0_ul.shtml
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AldenG
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by AldenG » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:34 pm

iltalehti.fi wrote:McDonald's Japanese office declined to comment.
What're they going to say?

"We share in the family's sorrow at their loss but categorically deny that overwork was the cause. Autopsy results show conclusively that this employee's death was caused by her diet of Big Macs and french fries, not by overwork."
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Pursuivant
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:27 pm

So in other words she died of too many lunch breaks?
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

AldenG
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Re: how much damages can I get for harassment, health loss

Post by AldenG » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:18 pm

Pursuivant wrote:So in other words she died of too many lunch breaks?
If you ever tire of programming, you show a real aptitude for Human Resources work.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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