Discrimination to employment

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FraserinFinland
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Discrimination to employment

Post by FraserinFinland » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:02 pm

I am trying to get a job using the Palkkatuki/Työharjoittelu/Työelämävalmennus at a government owned company. So I went online and got onto their contact area (in English) and the reply was in english. Stating that "To work with us you need to speak Finnish fluently. If that is not a problem you will find the recruiting form..." But the form she sent was for a labouring area. Not for the head office as I asked. When I phoned up to ask for the area at the head office, I was put through to a woman who said that "I could not apply". So I asked in Finnish "Why? Even if I could speak and understand what she was saying, why could I not apply?" She said that "we wouldn't accept it". So I said that their website in Finnish/Swedish/English. So there must be some use for it, it isn't as though I only speak Japanesse. What about if I put my CV in Finnish for them?

It is brilliant now that I have been here in Finland for 22 months and already I can have an argument IN FINNISH with someone. I mean that must stand for an understanding of the finer points of any language to be able to understand/explain/answer and use sarcasism.

On a more serious note this is just as bad as having a sign on the door saying "No Black or Irish need apply" Now I don't want to sue them, I just want a job.
The discrimination act* here in Finland states that "Nobody may be discriminated against on the basis of age, ethnic or national origin, nationality, language, religion, belief, opinion, health, disability, sexual orientation or other personal characteristics"
Ref Act 2004*http://www.finlex.fi/pdf/saadkaan/E0040021.PDF

What are mý options?



Discrimination to employment

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Pursuivant
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:10 pm

I think unfortunately they tend to hire these "työharjoittelu" cases into jobs where they recycle people doing some crap job basically as free labor( a bit like some companies abusing the polytechnic trainees). Especially a government company where theres a night and day difference of a "job" and a "tenure". They like to chain up jobs so you need to reapply for your own job every so often. But a government company is usually quite on the mark with all kinds of other legislation. So if they're looking for people with Finnish skills - I guess you better not put that 2 years in Finland experience into use - don't go onto the Finnish pages and apply as if you was integrated. :wink:
Last edited by Pursuivant on Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


Tiwaz
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Tiwaz » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:33 am

Now, did they or did they not have open trainee position for head office?

If yes, you might have a case if all your other skills met the demands.
If not... What the hell you expected?

That they fart up a nice, cushy head office job just for you because you want it?
If there is no opening, there is no opening.

Also...
Problem with applying to head offices for some kind of training/unemployment work period is that there is little need for unskilled short term temporary workers.

On labor side there can be room for guy who has as his task to move boxes from point A to point B.
It does not require any particular skills and you can be trained to do that in 5 minutes.


FraserinFinland
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by FraserinFinland » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:55 am

But that is the point, I haven't even got to that with them. I can't even apply for work. I haven't even used this 'working for free' as an option for them. As I am not unskilled or temporary, far from it. If they would care to look.
Other companies have at least just opted out by saying - just send us your cv and never reply.

That is what surprised me. It does happen. I know that any foriegner wíll be at the bottom of the pile anyway. Oddly I have alot offer them.
But the Finns do really think that you are either a cleaner or berry picker. They really do.


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kay30
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by kay30 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:40 am

It's OK though, because there is no corruption in Finland. :lol:

Seriously though. Don't take it personally bec even the local people get treated like crap with ridiculous requirements for even entry-level jobs. As in requirements like:

- must be 25 or under
- must be willing to be totally ignored by co-workers who do nothing but take coffee breaks and go on sick leave for 8 hours a day, including holidays and birthdays
- must have a PhD
- must speak fluent Finnish, Swedish, English, Russian, Spanish AND Esperanto
- must have 2-3 years experience in an international company (even though we speak ONLY Finnish at our company)
- must be willing to work in Lapland in an unheated cottage
- job is only for 6 months and is unpaid, but you must be willing to appreciate the training WE are investing in YOU and be grateful for any miserable scraps we throw your way

Oh. You took an drawing class in high school? That is very difficult since we are looking ONLY for painters and have totally inflexible requirements. Sorry. We are only looking for people who have known precisely what they wanted to do since age 8 and have never, ever strayed from that path. NEXT!


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onkko
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by onkko » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:43 am

So if i get this right..

You want Palkkatuki/Työharjoittelu/Työelämävalmennus job and try to get it with contacting directly in head office, i assume there isnt open place what tells that you should contact head office since you didnt know exactly what kind of place you want. Those jobs arent created according to people wanting but you apply open ones if you are entitled for support needed to that specific open job.

Head office replies to you that you need finnish and if thats not a problem then use HR page to apply.

You want to override their HR apartment and apply directly to head office and they said thats not possible.

You yell discrimination while you are probably treated exactly like everyone else...

Did i get something wrong?
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


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Pursuivant
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:52 am

FraserinFinland wrote: As I am not unskilled or temporary, far from it. If they would care to look.
Other companies have at least just opted out by saying - just send us your cv and never reply.
Well, you saved a stamp.

Of course, adding to kay30: you need also 10+ years work experience in the field - even for entry level jobs.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


Rick1
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Rick1 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:01 am

And soon we have Mr. J. Olilla or other Kokomuslainen again complaining that we do not have enough right people (that means the ones who do not complain and keep the bonuses high for them) to fill the jobs :lol:


Amandine.K
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Amandine.K » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:04 pm

I had a similar case a while ago. Applied to work as a registered nurse in one of the main hospital in the capital area. I answered all questions on the phone in Finnish, no problem there. I was asked for an interview but before that I was asked what African country I was from as I speak French... Already I was smelling something fishy.

I went to the interview, I stayed 8 minutes, wasn't given a chance at all. They fully knew they were not going to employ me (not the right skin colour? After all it looks better for them to have foreigners with a different skin colour than them, show that Finland doesn't do discrimination...).

Now my Finnish is not perfect but I showed them that I could communicate and understand well enough to work. I had the skills and motivation. They need nurses badly.

I was so disgrunted that I chose to go back to my old job as a teacher which I enjoy greatly and at least I don't get nasty comments.

So yes I do believe that there is a lot of discrimination around here that is often very well covered by the "You don't speak perfect Finnish"...


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kay30
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by kay30 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:34 pm

Yup. I have seen it myself too. Anyhow, the "You don't speak perfect Finnish" will only be replaced by something else when that can no longer be used against you.
- you haven't known the hiring manager since birth
- you don't go out drinking with the boys every Saturday night
- you dare speak out against anything as a foreigner
- you think for yourself vs. go along with all the sheep
- you were not born here (hard to fight that one)
- you don't know people in management because you never went to the Finnish army with them
- you work too hard and make the others look bad
- you have a hard time accepting that THIS is how WE do things HERE (because we have always done it that way)
- insert whatever random excuse here


Tiwaz
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Tiwaz » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:32 pm

FraserinFinland wrote:But that is the point, I haven't even got to that with them. I can't even apply for work. I haven't even used this 'working for free' as an option for them. As I am not unskilled or temporary, far from it. If they would care to look.
Other companies have at least just opted out by saying - just send us your cv and never reply.

That is what surprised me. It does happen. I know that any foriegner wíll be at the bottom of the pile anyway. Oddly I have alot offer them.
But the Finns do really think that you are either a cleaner or berry picker. They really do.

Now, just to underline what Onkko said since some people appear to have little issue understanding what is actual problem here...


You applied for job which DOES NOT EXIST.

They apparently did not have ANY open position in head office where you would fit. No need for worker = no worker hired.

Honestly... This is same as me just sending application to Bank of Finland, and specially their management level, and expecting them to custom make a job for me because I want to work there.

It is unrealistic.

Or do you have some kind of proof that after you they took Finn with your credentials to work directly at the head office?

Amandine.K wrote:Now my Finnish is not perfect but I showed them that I could communicate and understand well enough to work. I had the skills and motivation. They need nurses badly.
Now, unfortunate to hear about what happened with you. But I would suggest you consider other possibilities besides "Finns are racist" as reason why you were not hired.

First of all, can you confirm that what you think is sufficient level to do your duties is considered sufficient level by hospital administration?

Sorry to say, but many foreigners tend to overestimate their language skills. And when dealing with nurses and doctors, danger of having something "lost in translation" is simply unacceptably high at least in hospitals.


FraserinFinland
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by FraserinFinland » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:25 pm

It isn't Dr's and Nurses :D don't worry. Panic over...
Thing is I know there is a job there, as I have a friend who works in another region up north who recommended I apply as they have trouble (like 18 months) trying to find someone here within Finland. I said to him that I would apply directly rather than go thru the back door as is the Finnish tradition.
In much the same way that I don't want to get a job because I kicked up a stink or knew someone. :| Who would think I would want to get it on my qualities huh. It just surprised me this thing still goes on. :ohno:

I like now that I know what the Finns say under their breath in Finnish when they think you don't understand. It has been interesting seeing what they say to your face.


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Pursuivant
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:43 pm

FraserinFinland wrote:go thru the back door as is the Finnish tradition.
.
Option
a) with job
b) without job

Providing the rear entry isn't done "estilo Germanico" that is "ohne vaselin" :wink:
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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onkko
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by onkko » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:50 pm

FraserinFinland wrote:...I have a friend who works in another region up north who recommended I apply as they have trouble (like 18 months) trying to find someone here within Finland... ...I said to him that I would apply directly rather than go thru the back door as is the Finnish tradition...
So you have a "friend"... Sure... If he is in position to say they need worker and youre perfect in it you would been hired already. And you dont want to go in normal routes like EVERY OTHER and you cry discrimination...
Are you mentally challenged or what? Ask phone nr or something from your "friend". If its big enough business that wouldnt help much because in there they do everything IN BOOK and every rule applies to EVERYONE. You may want to add your "friend" as one who recommends you.
If your "friend" is in position to hire you TAKE IT! Thats backdoor, going thru HR as adviced isnt.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


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Pursuivant
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Re: Discrimination to employment

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:53 pm

Problem is most probably there isn't a "tenure" or that theres 10 people "on the hiring list" they've fired thay have to go through union motions to prove they are not fit to be rehired... or someone available who won't move etc.... union rules is fun.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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