mitä and mikä

[03005061]

This is going to sound stoopid, but I still cannot get my head around the difference between MITÄ and MIKÄ. The same goes for TÄMÄ and TÄTÄ.

I actually do realise that the answer to both is the same, but I just cannot get a good answer from anyone how to understand the difference.

I guess it's like someone not being able to distinguish between TO and TOO, but can anyone this one by me again

Mitä tämä on? Mikä tämä on? ???
Ota tämä/tätä.. ???

I just give up!

J

[~kossumiGirl~]

if u say Mitä tämä on? its like whats this/whats going on?
if u say Mikä tämä on? its What is this?
sorry im not good at explaining..

[Mook]

Well, there's a technical answer involving use of the word "partitive", but from a practical prespective that doesn't really help

In the end you just have to learn which situations need which of the words

[03005061]

For example is it wrong, or is there a difference, in saying either:

Mitä sen pojan nimi on?

or

Mikä sen pojan nimi on?

If no difference, why make the distinction? See, that's what I don't understand, but everyone I ask shrugs their shoulders and says they are "basically" the same....

J

[~kossumiGirl~]

For example is it wrong, or is there a difference, in saying either:

Mitä sen pojan nimi on?

or

Mikä sen pojan nimi on?

If no difference, why make the distinction? See, that's what I don't understand, but everyone I ask shrugs their shoulders and says they are "basically" the same....

J

U cant say "Mitä sen pojan nimi on"?
because that would be like Who is the boy's name or something..
"Mikä sen pojan nimi on?" is What is the boy's name?

[Paul_D]

I don't speak finnish, but from what I understand here, could it be that "mikä" is used for something that is well defined (an object, the name of someone, etc.), (accusative case ?) and "mitä" would be used for something that is not well defined and that can't be gripped/seen/understood totally (genetive case ?).

So.... let's imagine the sentence "what do you love"... would it be mitä ? And "what do you like", would it be mikä ?

Just a wild guess... I repeat, I don't know finnish, barely 50 words. The topic is interesting, I can try to learn something today

/Paul

[sotka_]

Mitä tämä on? Mikä tämä on? ???
Ota tämä/tätä.. ???
J

Mitä tämä on? What is this (made of)?

Mikä tämä on? (What is this?)
What is this? It is a table.

Ota tämä: take this (an apple, for example)
Ota tätä: take some of this (apple juice, for example)

Countable vs. uncountable, I'd say.

[Mook]

I don't speak finnish, but from what I understand here, could it be that "mikä" is used for something that is well defined (an object, the name of someone, etc.), (accusative case ?) and "mitä" would be used for something that is not well defined and that can't be gripped/seen/understood totally (genetive case ?).

Jep, that's more/less correct. (Except that Mitä is the partitive form)

But as the Finnish language is a natural thing, there are always exceptions

[E Maya]

Paul has a point there!

Mikä goes with things concrete and specific, while mitä is used with things abstract and undefined.

Mitä kello on? What's the time? abstract concept

Mikä kello? Which clock? concrete object

[03005061]

awwww THANKS people for that excellent explanation!

That is one big mystery that has eluded me for so long, but now I understand that there IS a big difference between the two.

Defined vs Undefined: brilliant! See, Finnish isn't that hard .....

J

[Pecchio]

Yes, the difference might be explained away, but please keep in mind that we are entering an age (of Aquarius? NO!) when the natives, at least the young natives, are beginning to lose their grip of the language as we (i.e. I) know it. I mean if you really want to dive into the world of objects, accusatives, partitives and "Mikä mitäkin on", you have to listen to only a select few of the natives, or scholars, or linguists, or foreigners who master parts of the language far better than the man on the street.

As this seems to be the case in any language I know, the process of development is inevitable, and (yes, I know) we must go with the flow or drown, or get out of the water, or invent new waters, or...
Perhaps this is the wrong forum to vent. I'm sorry.

In full realization that this does not help at all, I stop.
I'll try to come up with a better answer to your original question later.

[Pecchio]

For example is it wrong, or is there a difference, in saying either:

Mitä sen pojan nimi on?

or

Mikä sen pojan nimi on?

If no difference, why make the distinction? See, that's what I don't understand, but everyone I ask shrugs their shoulders and says they are "basically" the same....

J

Please do not tell me that this "everyone" includes any Finnish people!
The are not basically the same, not even close. This is a black-and-white situation: the first (Mitä...) is plain wrong, the other (Mikä...) right.

I understand that people usually cannot say why something is the case, but if they tell you that you can "basically" say either way, they are lying to you, or mentally and intellectually lazy. Oh for F**k's sake!

I'm upset. Let me give you an example: If I come to your house and bring wine and flowers, or - vomit on you when you open the door and mug you on the spot, is it "basically" the same to these half-wits?

The matter is most trivial, but I'm shocked beyond belief.

By the way, how's your name?
- Oh well, basically the same.

[03005061]

So if it is "wrong" why can you still use mitä?

Ok, so if it is "black & white" can you please explain why some cases you can still use Mitä in some cases. To add to my confusion, here are some examples:

Mitä sen pojan äiti on oikein opettanut sille?
http://tieteiskirjoittajat.utu.fi/muuto ... emma.shtml

Tiedätkö edes mitä sen pojan kaveri ajattelee sinusta?
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8

I am confused again now... but let's see if we get this right.

Is "Mikä sen pojan nimi on?" ok because his NAME is concrete thing, and the above two with "Mitä" are ok because the thoughts and learning are abstract, therefore OK to use Mitä sen pojan... ?

J

Ps. Re:

Please do not tell me that this "everyone" includes any Finnish people!

I guess all the people I asked either didn't speak it fully/enough either, to be able to explain the difference. Your statement by the way is NONSENSICAL because you assume that ALL Finns speak Finnish. They don't.

[03005061]

And further more, it's supportive and encourgeing people like Pecchio who make people feel really good about how far they are coming along with their Finnish. What are you? A disgruntled Kielikuolu teacher?

If you are "intelligent" enough to know the black & white between the two, then surely you are "intelligent" enough to know what someone is trying to say without ridiculing them for their mistakes or for asking.

The real irony is that a lot of people give up because people tell them how "wrong" their Finnish is when they say something wrong, but also have the gall to tell them they are wrong when they are technically correct, such as saying "he ovat" or "me olemme tulleet" and laugh at them because "people don't speak like that". It's enough to say "Bugger this, I'm outta here". How crap is that!?


J

[Pecchio]

So if it is "wrong" why can you still use mitä?

I was referring to the one instance of usage that I quoted above my stark raving mad posting, i.e. "Mikä sen pojan nimi on?" In this case ONLY, using "Mitä..." would be wrong. Otherwise it's of course allowed.

Ok, so if it is "black & white" can you please explain why some cases you can still use Mitä in some cases.

First, I'm sorry that my post above was a bit...er...angry. I have come to my senses now. Second, it was black & white only in that spesific instance.

"Mitä" is the partitive form of "Mikä". So in a robot world, "Mikä" would translate as "What/which" and "Mitä" as "Of what / of which".

I am confused again now... but let's see if we get this right.

I'm afraid we won't - at least not in a few days. Perhaps it would help if you could say how far you have advanced in your studies, and how well you are familiar with all the technical linguistic stuff (that I like) so that we could start on the right track. But let's see.

Is "Mikä sen pojan nimi on?" ok because his NAME is concrete thing, and the above two with "Mitä" are ok because the thoughts and learning are abstract, therefore OK to use Mitä sen pojan... ?

No. As a layman in linguistics, but a self-appointed wit, I would say that the question is not at all about concrete vs. abstract. You need to change the (sorry) "basic" way of thinking or approaching this question. I cannot help you in this particular message, but I'll fetch my reference books in Finnish (university level linguistics) and try to cook up something clever. I have to give this some thought.

Your statement by the way is NONSENSICAL because you assume that ALL Finns speak Finnish. They don't.

Yes it is, on the surface. The underlying premise was that at least one of the people you have asked was a genuine Finnish-speaking person who was in every sense qualified, or should have been qualified, to give you correct information. But let's not get into this, or I have to dust off the old logic books as well.

Just a moment (of indefinite amount of time-space),

P.