Learning the Language Blues

simakun · Post by **simakun** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:18 pm

okay, I haven't been learning Finnish for very long (7 weeks) but lately I've been having some days when I feel like either slitting my throat or throwing my table at someone. The classes run 4 afternoons a week and my teacher doesn't know any English (but apparently is fluent in Russian to the delight of over half the class which is Russian-speaking) so I'm constantly at a loss to what the hell is going on. She explains subtle grammatical stuff in Finnish and I'm valiantly struggling (with limited success) with the idiosyncrasies of this infernal language. Maybe I should be studying harder or I'm just a dunce or the teacher is lousy but considering the time the class has been going on for, I'm suprised that it's this frustrating and even exhausting trying to keep up each day. Going to class these days feels like pulling teeth: arduous, torturous and at the back of my mind I'm constantly wondering "is this really necessary?". Other than whingeing, I'm wondering if there are any of you out there who've experienced this? For the "old-timers", are there any of you who, many years later, still have not been able to develop a conversational grasp of Finnish and more importantly, don't really care to?

**Sponsor:**

deojuvame · Post by **deojuvame** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:57 pm

Where are you taking classes? Maybe it would be good to check out other schools where the fit is better. I tried out a couple of different classes at different schools before I found one that clicked.

Handsome · Post by **Handsome** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:11 am

Yep, I second Arabella. It sounds like that teaching method isn't for you. Just try looking for another class, and keep trying.

Stu

simakun · Post by **simakun** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:25 am

So what you guys are saying is that my experience is largely influenced by the teacher or the method/style of teaching and it isn't an intrinsic part of learning finnish? If so, that's a relief cos I was becoming increasingly concerned that I may never learn this language. But surely my experience isn't isolated. Has anyone else had similar personal experiences with learning finnish? Unfortunately, I'm locked into the course 'cos I depend heavily on the govt subsidies that it provides and I've arranged my part-time work around it. I thought of trying to increase my work hours but it isn't feasible right now.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:35 am

Well, if we'd ask Peter, he might say slight differences in intonation can make the learning curve quite fast...

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:45 am

simakun wrote: Unfortunately, I'm locked into the course 'cos I depend heavily on the govt subsidies that it provides and I've arranged my part-time work around it.

Locked in to a language course where the teacher cannot communicate to you a student...

Unless you speak Russian..are you sure you are in the right class rooom?

It is going to make it very hard work for you as a beginner.
Finnish is not an easy language, but it can be learnt if you have a good teacher.
If the teaching method used on this course is to try to explain Finnish gramatic rules in Finnish to a raw beginner with no help in English available.

..No wonder you feel so fed up..
You need at least some basic introduction in English, or at least a translation of the gramatic terms...so when the teacher says "partitivi plural" you at least know what it means.. I would be demanding it from someone...otherwise it is could become a waste of time and money.
Couple of questions:
What is the course book?
Who runs this course/where?

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:48 am

Hank W. wrote:Well, if we'd ask Peter, he might say slight differences in intonation can make the learning curve quite fast...

Joo joo..depends how many beers I have drunk...

I still insist that I said..Onko Ilmaiseksi? not..

Oletko ilman seksi?

Tom and Jerry · Post by **Tom and Jerry** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 12:34 pm

simakun wrote: and my teacher doesn't know any English (but apparently is fluent in Russian to the delight of over half the class which is Russian-speaking) so I'm constantly at a loss to what the hell is going on. (

Yes, this is a general problem. I can mention a few more. A decade ago they put all students in one class, beginners and advanced. I'v been in classes where some people had to learn the alphabet and other linguists were talking about the use of the instructive.

I was so fed up with this that I took with the Finnish people lessons in communication, logopaedy and theatre. I wasn't interested in these topics, but the teachers were usually also language teachters, and in that way I listened to people who really spoke well Finnish.

If you are obliged to follow this lessons, there isn't much you can do. It doesn't help to complain about this: The Finnish for Foreigners lessons are not well organized in Finland. (Except for the courses at the Helsinki university, and a few other places).

You may get your own English course books and try to use these.
Finnish for foreigners from Aaltonen is quite well made and often used.

deojuvame · Post by **deojuvame** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 1:26 pm

simakun wrote:So what you guys are saying is that my experience is largely influenced by the teacher or the method/style of teaching and it isn't an intrinsic part of learning finnish? If so, that's a relief cos I was becoming increasingly concerned that I may never learn this language. But surely my experience isn't isolated. Has anyone else had similar personal experiences with learning finnish? Unfortunately, I'm locked into the course 'cos I depend heavily on the govt subsidies that it provides and I've arranged my part-time work around it. I thought of trying to increase my work hours but it isn't feasible right now.

Well, you're learning finnish under a rock if you haven't heard at least one person say that "finnish is (one of) the most difficult languages to learn". It is very very hard to get the language down because of its finno-ugric language heritage.

That said, I like the class I'm in now because they're mostly pretty much learning at the same level as me in terms of learning the language, and we can all bitch and moan together about the process of learning the langage, guage each other's progress, and help each other out because we each know where the others' questions are coming from. And this shouldn't be an exception to the rule- it's something you should be actively seeking out if you want to learn the language in a class instead of in private tutoring.

simakun · Post by **simakun** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:45 pm

The classes are held at a lukio on mäkelänkatu. We're using Hyvin Menee by Heikkila and Majakangas. First time I looked at the book, I was astounded cos it's entirely in Finnish. I naively assumed that the teacher would explain the material in English.

Funny how Peter mentioned partitive plurals cos I think we're now working on partitive nouns, singular and plural. Y'know I learnt English by just growing up speaking and reading it. I don't remember any of my school teachers ever using words like partitive or genitive, so it's only now that I'm actually discovering their technical definitions. If the sentence didn't "sound" right then Í instintively knew there was something wrong and somehow I also knew how to correct it.

deojuvame · Post by **deojuvame** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:31 pm

simakun wrote:The classes are held at a lukio on mäkelänkatu. We're using Hyvin Menee by Heikkila and Majakangas. First time I looked at the book, I was astounded cos it's entirely in Finnish. I naively assumed that the teacher would explain the material in English.

Funny how Peter mentioned partitive plurals cos I think we're now working on partitive nouns, singular and plural. Y'know I learnt English by just growing up speaking and reading it. I don't remember any of my school teachers ever using words like partitive or genitive, so it's only now that I'm actually discovering their technical definitions. If the sentence didn't "sound" right then Í instintively knew there was something wrong and somehow I also knew how to correct it.

We're using that book too in our finnish class. There's a tape set that comes with it- maybe you might want to pick them up and practice with those too. Apparently the bookstores stock the tapes when they stock the books, but they don't stock them next to each other, so no one buys them...

If it makes you feel better, after the age of 13 or so the brain cells harden and it's a lot more difficult to learn new languages.

And also, the "genitive" "partitive" stuff is really confusing to me too

It would be nice if, when classes in any language is taught, they ran over those difinitions quickly so students would know what the hell teachers were talking about without having to pick up a linguistics course first...

Niall Shaky · Post by **Niall Shaky** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:16 am

Hi Simakun

Yeah, the linguistics terms (partitive, genetive, accusitive, conditional, plu perfect) all that nonsense is a pain, but in finnish it really helps to put together that lot in a framework. It's just short-hand that in the end really makes studying and talking about the language easier.

Unfortunately, as Arabella says, learning your mother tongue as a child is a totally different experience to learning a foreign language as an adult.

Also, are your goals realistic? Are you being overambitious? To be honest, 7 weeks is absolutely nothing when you are studying a language.

Although of course it is very much dependent on how much time and effort you put in, it might be more reasonable to think in terms of 3-4 years to get truly fluent in Finnish.

You might also want to set some intermediate goals e.g:

1) Get to the stage where you can order food and drink from a menu using just finnish, also paying the bill
2) Be able to have an entire lunchtime conversation with a finnish colleague friend
3) Being able to participate in Shaky's Thursday Evening Discussion Group
4) Being able to tell a joke in Finnish (and get a laugh)
5) Watch the TV news- and understand it
6) Spend an evening in the pub just speaking Finnish
7) Spend a day at work, just speaking Finnish.

You will also find, like anything else, that you go through periods where your learning plateaus or even slips back a bit. I'm trying to pull myself out of a trough right now, I've made the following resolutions:

1. Go to lessons: on time
2. Write up lessons afterwards, make word-list of vocabulary to study
3. Spend time looking up grammar subject matter from lessons in textbooks
4. Do set homework from lessons
5. Study one extra thing per week independent of lessons
6. Go to conversation group each thursday evening
7. Speak Finnish whenever possible, be reluctant to use English (esp. to girlfriend)

Finally, as has been stated above Finnish is just damn hard, because of its great difference from English. If you picked something easier like German, Swedish, Danish etc. you would find life much easier. But that's the way it is.

Good luck.

Niall

PeterF · Post by **PeterF** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:28 pm

Partivi Plural ete etc....Parts of Speach ..gramatical terms...It was only when I did A levels at school and found myself (by mistake) in the English A level course that I learnt that there were more than just nouns and verbs and adjectives...came in usefull when learning Finnish..knowing how to spot the object and subject of a sentence is important in Finnish grammer.
Read this..
http://www.uottawa.ca/academic/arts/wri ... entpt.html
Also..
Have you looked at the list of books in our recommended reading list..
http://www...net/bb/viewtopic.php?t=425
The first one is a must buy..Fred Karlsson may be a boring old Fart (as told to me by one of his Masters degree students)..but his abilty to explaln in English the twists and túrns of Finnish grammer is second to none.

Hank W. · Post by **Hank W.** » Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:20 pm

simakun wrote:Funny how Peter mentioned partitive plurals cos I think we're now working on partitive nouns, singular and plural. Y'know I learnt English by just growing up speaking and reading it. I don't remember any of my school teachers ever using words like partitive or genitive, so it's only now that I'm actually discovering their technical definitions.

It only requires Sr. Mary and a whack of the pointing stick on the catheder with a certain look to get lazy boys do their grammar homework...

Here's where its at:
The King’s English, H.W. Fowler http://www.bartleby.com/116/

*whack*

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