Imperfekti tense

[Alastair]

Okay, I've started trying to teach myself the past tense in Finnish and well to be kind it's vittun vaikea. On some words it's -si and on others it's -oi or some such? The people i speak and write with just accept my bad Finnish as par for the course and thus they don't correct me. Can someone give me a bit of an explanation?

[Jukka Aho]

Okay, I've started trying to teach myself the past tense in Finnish and well to be kind it's vittun vaikea. On some words it's -si and on others it's -oi or some such? [...] Can someone give me a bit of an explanation?

Would these be of any help to you?

• Uusi kielemme – The imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – The negative imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – The passive imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – Verbtypes
• Uusi kielemme – Consonant gradation

[Rosamunda]

Okay, I've started trying to teach myself the past tense in Finnish and well to be kind it's vittun vaikea.

Yes and no. I can think of several languages (eg French) where the use and form of the past tenses is much more difficult to handle than the Finnish. Probably no consolation to you though Hang in there

[obakesan]

Okay, I've started trying to teach myself the past tense in Finnish and well to be kind it's vittun vaikea. On some words it's -si and on others it's -oi or some such? [...] Can someone give me a bit of an explanation?

Would these be of any help to you?

• Uusi kielemme – The imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – The negative imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – The passive imperfect
• Uusi kielemme – Verbtypes
• Uusi kielemme – Consonant gradation

I'm suffering the same issue as Alistair, and no those links are not real helpful. Too compex and don't seem to give a straight answer to how the past tense is handled (let alone examples).

Aside from English my only other language is Japanese (which seems !"#¤% easier than Finnish) and past tense is simple (if irregular).

Is there no list of verbs with just past tense?

[Rekkari]

Well, one approach to learning the past tense would be to listen to people speak Finnish and simply absorb it. That might work for some people (young children whose brains are still plastic come to mind), but others need a more systematic approach.

The rules appear complicated (or even nonexistent) at first glance but are easy to remember and apply with practice, especially if you are already comfortable with the present tense rules. There is a method to the madness!

I learned to recognize verbs as belonging to one of six Types, and also memorized the four principle forms from which ALL other forms can be formed: 1st infinitive, 1st person present singular, 3rd person past singular, and past active participle. For example:

antaa, annan, antoi, antanut
juoda, juon, joi, juonut
tulla, tulen, tuli, tullut
osata, osaan, osasi, osannut
merkitä, merkitsen, merkitsi, merkinnyt
paeta, pakenen, pakeni, paennut

For the past tense, five 'easy' rules:

• Use the infinitive stem.
• 'i' is the past tense marker, which you add to the stem
• the addition of 'i' may effect changes in the final vowel of the stem
• the personal endings are the same except for 3rd singular, which has no ending in the past
• kpt changes (consonant gradation) rules still apply!

That's it.

The final vowel changes that may occur in the stem probably present the most difficulty. First, the easy stuff:

If the stem ends in [o,u,ö,y], don't do anything to it!
puhua > puhu > puhu + i = puhuin, puhui
sanoa > sano > sano + i = sanoin, sanoi
kysyä > kysy > kysy + i = kysyin, kysyi

If the stem ends in [e,i,ä], just drop the final vowel:
hakea > hake > hak + i = hain,haki
lähteä > lähte > läht + i = lähdin,lähti
sulkea > sulke > sulk + i = suljin, sulki
tulla > tule > tul + i = tulin, tuli
oppia > oppi > opp + i = opin, oppi
toimia > toimi > toim + i = toimin, toimi
lähettää > lähettä > lähett + i = lähetin, lähetti
pitää > pitä > pit + i = pidin, piti

Stems that end in [a] are also easy, with only a slight wrinkle:
For 2-syllable verbs where the 1st vowel is also an 'a', change the final vowel to an 'o':
maksaa > maksa > makso + i = maksoin, maksoi
auttaa > autta > autto + i = autoin, auttoi

Otherwise (i.e., 1st vowel is NOT 'a' or verb is NOT two syllables), drop the final vowel:
ottaa > otta > ott + i = otin, otti
kirjoittaa > kirjoitta > kirjoitt+ i = kirjoitin, kirjoitti

If the stem ends in two identical vowels or 'oi', drop the second vowel of the pair:
saada > saa > sa + i = sain, sai
jäädä > jää > jä + i = jäin, jäi
voida > voi > vo + i = voin, voi

If the stem ends in [ie,uo,yö], drop the first vowel:
viedä > vie > ve + i = vein, vei
tuoda > tuo > to + i = toin, toi
lyödä > lyö > lö + i = löin, löi

Now the trickier stuff:

Generally, if the stem contains [lt,nt,rt], change the 't' to 's' and drop the final vowel:
kieltää > kieltä > kiels + i = kielsin, kielsi
lentää > lentä > lens + i = lensin, lensi
tuntea > tunte > tuns + i = tunsin, tunsi
ymmärtää > ymmärtä > ymmärs + i = ymmärsin, ymmärsi

And this verb type behaves similarly (do you see what these members have in common?)
tietää > tietä > ties + i = tiesin, tiesi
löytää > löytä > löys + i = löysin, löysi
pyytää > pyytä > pyys + i = pyysin, pyysi

Usually Type 4 verbs (end in vowel other than 'i' or 'e' + 'ta/tä') pick up an 's':
haluta > halu > halus + i = halusin, halusi
levätä > levä > lepäs + i = lepäsin, lepäsi
tuhota > tuho > tuhos + i = tuhosin, tuhosi

Type 5 verbs (end in 'ita/itä') pick up a 'ts':
merkitä > merki > merkits + i = merkitsin, merkitsi


Finally, there are the irregulars that you just have to learn (fortunately, there aren't many of these):
käydä > käy > käv + i = kävin, kävi
nähdä > näh > näk + i = näin, näki
tehdä > teh > tek + i = tein, teki

Okay, so that's looks like a lot of rules, but it really isn't all that difficult once you get used to recognizing which of the six verb Types applies. If you can do that, you'll have a template from which to work.

[kharnynb]

Before you dive into past tense etc., you will have to learn the 6 different types of verbs and the 14 or so types of nouns.

Then, it will not be so hard to learn how to make imperfect etc.

[Rob A.]

Well, one approach to learning the past tense would be to listen to people speak Finnish and simply absorb it. That might work for some people (young children whose brains are still plastic come to mind), but others need a more systematic approach.

The rules appear complicated (or even nonexistent) at first glance but are easy to remember and apply with practice, especially if you are already comfortable with the present tense rules. There is a method to the madness!

I learned to recognize verbs as belonging to one of six Types, and also memorized the four principle forms from which ALL other forms can be formed: 1st infinitive, 1st person present singular, 3rd person past singular, and past active participle. For example:

antaa, annan, antoi, antanut
juoda, juon, joi, juonut
tulla, tulen, tuli, tullut
osata, osaan, osasi, osannut
merkitä, merkitsen, merkitsi, merkinnyt
paeta, pakenen, pakeni, paennut

For the past tense, five 'easy' rules:

• Use the infinitive stem.
• 'i' is the past tense marker, which you add to the stem
• the addition of 'i' may effect changes in the final vowel of the stem
• the personal endings are the same except for 3rd singular, which has no ending in the past
• kpt changes (consonant gradation) rules still apply!

That's it.

The final vowel changes that may occur in the stem probably present the most difficulty. First, the easy stuff:

If the stem ends in [o,u,ö,y], don't do anything to it!
puhua > puhu > puhu + i = puhuin, puhui
sanoa > sano > sano + i = sanoin, sanoi
kysyä > kysy > kysy + i = kysyin, kysyi

If the stem ends in [e,i,ä], just drop the final vowel:
hakea > hake > hak + i = hain,haki
lähteä > lähte > läht + i = lähdin,lähti
sulkea > sulke > sulk + i = suljin, sulki
tulla > tule > tul + i = tulin, tuli
oppia > oppi > opp + i = opin, oppi
toimia > toimi > toim + i = toimin, toimi
lähettää > lähettä > lähett + i = lähetin, lähetti
pitää > pitä > pit + i = pidin, piti

Stems that end in [a] are also easy, with only a slight wrinkle:
For 2-syllable verbs where the 1st vowel is also an 'a', change the final vowel to an 'o':
maksaa > maksa > makso + i = maksoin, maksoi
auttaa > autta > autto + i = autoin, auttoi

Otherwise (i.e., 1st vowel is NOT 'a' or verb is NOT two syllables), drop the final vowel:
ottaa > otta > ott + i = otin, otti
kirjoittaa > kirjoitta > kirjoitt+ i = kirjoitin, kirjoitti

If the stem ends in two identical vowels or 'oi', drop the second vowel of the pair:
saada > saa > sa + i = sain, sai
jäädä > jää > jä + i = jäin, jäi
voida > voi > vo + i = voin, voi

If the stem ends in [ie,uo,yö], drop the first vowel:
viedä > vie > ve + i = vein, vei
tuoda > tuo > to + i = toin, toi
lyödä > lyö > lö + i = löin, löi

Now the trickier stuff:

Generally, if the stem contains [lt,nt,rt], change the 't' to 's' and drop the final vowel:
kieltää > kieltä > kiels + i = kielsin, kielsi
lentää > lentä > lens + i = lensin, lensi
tuntea > tunte > tuns + i = tunsin, tunsi
ymmärtää > ymmärtä > ymmärs + i = ymmärsin, ymmärsi

And this verb type behaves similarly (do you see what these members have in common?)
tietää > tietä > ties + i = tiesin, tiesi
löytää > löytä > löys + i = löysin, löysi
pyytää > pyytä > pyys + i = pyysin, pyysi

Usually Type 4 verbs (end in vowel other than 'i' or 'e' + 'ta/tä') pick up an 's':
haluta > halu > halus + i = halusin, halusi
levätä > levä > lepäs + i = lepäsin, lepäsi
tuhota > tuho > tuhos + i = tuhosin, tuhosi

Type 5 verbs (end in 'ita/itä') pick up a 'ts':
merkitä > merki > merkits + i = merkitsin, merkitsi


Finally, there are the irregulars that you just have to learn (fortunately, there aren't many of these):
käydä > käy > käv + i = kävin, kävi
nähdä > näh > näk + i = näin, näki
tehdä > teh > tek + i = tein, teki

Okay, so that's looks like a lot of rules, but it really isn't all that difficult once you get used to recognizing which of the six verb Types applies. If you can do that, you'll have a template from which to work.

This is pretty good....I don't think a person needs to try to memorize this...unless trying pass an exam, I guess... but when I scanned through the list the past tense patterns are obvious....

For me it has all become a bit intuitve now, but when I see the letters, "i" and/or "s" near the end of a verb, or "ut"/"yt" at the end....I'm quickly thinking "past tense"..... And if I want to form a past tense...I'll throw these letters into the words....often not quite correctly, but, hey, it takes forever to learn Finnish ....

[AldenG]

Well, plus it's more than just somewhat backwards focusing hard at this point on rules or any other method for production of particular verb forms. It's 180 degrees off from the skills one needs early on.

There really isn't any self-study path to speaking or writing acceptable Finnish that doesn't first pass through the territory of being able to read it well. If you read it badly, you're going to write it even worse -- and probably shouldn't be practicing such writing. That means that what you want to be learning in early stages is that -si- at the end of a verb marks it as a past form. Of course it's clearest with other personal forms such as meinasin, meinasit, meinasimme, meinasitte, meinasivat, but even with plain old -si, you know it has to be the 3ps past of a verb or a 2ps possessive or one of a handful of words like vesi. Progress in reading is all about recognizing (understanding) these endings, recognizing phrasal patterns, and of course building vocabulary (in context). You don't really need to know which verbs will use -sivat, you only need to understand it when you see it. And believe me, that's a much lower threshold.

You don't have to produce the forms correctly at first, you only need to be able to parse them correctly. Switching paradigms, you don't have to be able to go from käydä to kävi. You only need to know what kävi means. In fact, the only reason to be able to go from kävi to käydä is to look up the word in a paper-based reference. Online you can look up the meaning directly, without knowing the infinitive. Parsing is a very different skill which is helped by different kinds of heuristic and memory aids. By the time you are able to read and even hear these words in context, you're not going to need rules to know how to "make" them. You won't even be "making" them, you'll just know them -- as individual words.

Mastering production rules is so seductive and yet so minimally productive. If most of one's effort goes in that direction one may become quite adept at producing forms but will probably be as inept as ever at making actual sentences.

[Rekkari]

Rob A wrote:

...when I see the letters, "i" and/or "s" near the end of a verb, or "ut"/"yt" at the end....I'm quickly thinking "past tense".

Same here. Of course, the letters "i" and "s" near the end are not a guarantee that the past is being expressed. One has to be careful with verbs like etsiä, poimia, ehtiä, leikkiä, oppia and...uh...err...nussia

[jahasjahas]

And of course -isi- is the conditional mood, which doesn't even have an imperfect tense.

[Rob A.]

And of course -isi- is the conditional mood, which doesn't even have an imperfect tense.

Good point...though, for whatever reason, I never seem to have much trouble with the conditional...maybe its because the verb form tends to be long or maybe I've got it deep in my brain that "-isi-" means "would"/"should"...

[AldenG]

And of course -isi- is the conditional mood, which doesn't even have an imperfect tense.

Good point...though, for whatever reason, I never seem to have much trouble with the conditional...maybe its because the verb form tends to be long or maybe I've got it deep in my brain that "-isi-" means "would"/"should"...

I think that's because it's so invariant and distinctive. It's not only humans who have an easy time with it -- it's also very algorithm-friendly if the primary focus of analysis is word endings. Probably only the past passive is simpler to recognize with with minimal rules and high certainty.

[Rob A.]

Yeah... that'll be it....