siellä ja tuolla

[202202]

Hello,
I'd like to know the difference btw tuolla and siellä, for eg in these sentences:
Missä isä on? - hän on ulkona - Mitä hän siellä tekee?
and
Voit puhua tuolla eteisessa
By the way, in the above sentence, why "Voit" is used instead of "sinä"?
thanks

[AldenG]

Strictly speaking, siellä requires a prior point of reference. (Or sometimes immediately following, as in the construct siellä, missä kukat kasvavat.) In English grammar, we'd call the prior point of reference the antecedent.

So siellä sort of means "that place we just mentioned," while tuolla means "there" or "over there" or any of those meanings that -lla can impart. The word "there" in and of itself doesn't entirely clarify the difference because it means both things in English. (As both words to a bit in Finnish.) You pretty much have to learn stuff like this by example, since there is often no reasonable degree of pure translation that clarifies why it is the way it is.

Practically speaking, there's a lot of careless mixing of se and tuo and their various inflections in everyday Finnish speech and even sometimes writing.

[sammy]

Strictly speaking, siellä requires a prior point of reference...

One example of "bad" usage was the translation of the movie title "TheMan Who Wasn't There"

-> Mies, joka ei ollut siellä... that's just... very clumsy, precisely because there's no context / point of reference.

[AldenG]

I guess the closest word-for-word translation I'd be able to come up with for "The Man Who Wasn't There" would be Mies, joka ei ollut läsnä, with läsnä meaning "present."

But then you start going in circles asking yourself "What did they really mean, he wasn't there?" And even, which one of the characters are they actually referring to?

And you end up with a translation like Parturi -- "The Barber."

Which might actually have been a better way to go with that one.

[AldenG]

Voit puhua tuolla eteisessa
By the way, in the above sentence, why "Voit" is used instead of "sinä"?
thanks

It is not common to use the pronoun sinä unless you mean to emphasize "YOU, unlike others."

So "you can" is just voit.

The same goes for "me" and "we" -- you don't include them unless there is a particular reason, and the reason would usually be to emphasize a contrast or distinction.

[sammy]

I guess the closest word-for-word translation I'd be able to come up with for "The Man Who Wasn't There" would be Mies, joka ei ollut läsnä, with läsnä meaning "present."

That would have been better, yes. Or why not Poissaoleva mies (occasionally I wonder if it would be a better idea to forget the original title and just use a bit of creativity - what do you think of Matkalla Perditioniin )

The Finnish "siellä" just does not always work quite in the same way as "there" in English... re. the famous Zombies/Santana song "She's Not There" where it could be a question of either physical or "spiritual" absence. The latter sort of absence especially can not really be "naturally" expressed in Finnish by using siellä, but requires läsnä or some other sort of construction.

She's just... not there / Hän ei vain ole... läsnä.

Btw, the "sinä" word... you nowadays hear it a bit, in some passive tense contexts. I guess it's an influence from English (?) But this happens only in spoken language, and thus it's always the informal "sä" instead of "sinä"

http://fi.wiktionary.org/wiki/sin%C3%A4-passiivi

[AldenG]

Gertrude Stein on Oakland, CA: "There's no there there."

It becomes even harder to translate after the American penchant for infinitely recursive tongue-in-cheek derivative reference adapts it into a statement about personal vacuity: "I tried to get to know her, but eventually I realized there's no there there."

[sammy]

Siellä, täällä, tuolla, täällä, kaikkialla on... vaimoke

[AldenG]

(occasionally I wonder if it would be a better idea to forget the original title and just use a bit of creativity)

Or they could do what usually happens in Sweden: Forget the original title, use no creativity at all, and come up with something containing some form of the word blod or mord. Then translate the Swedish title into Finnish for distribution in Finland.

In fairness, though, what can you do with a title like Witness?

All the translations I've seen went for the legal and not the religious connotation of the title. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them seem sadly dumbed-down and pedestrian. If anything, given that audiences abroad often understand the obvious connotation without being told, wouldn't you want to get the less obvious one into the translation? And Witness is far from the best example. It's just the only one that comes to mind at the moment.

I think the first time I recall being irritated about it was with a book called "Provenance" by Frank McDonald, which the Swedish publisher translated as "Murder and Fine Art" -- a title that seems designed to attract readers who would have little interest in the book while repelling those who might appreciate it.

[Rob A.]

Strictly speaking, siellä requires a prior point of reference...

One example of "bad" usage was the translation of the movie title "TheMan Who Wasn't There"

-> Mies, joka ei ollut siellä... that's just... very clumsy, precisely because there's no context / point of reference.

Hmmmm...I read a review of this movie ....and almost fell asleep...either poorly written or a rather banal movie....:d

But judging from his "problem" maybe this would work...

Mies, jokalla oli p*skainen vastaus...or maybe ....p*skainen asianajaja or even ....p*skainen oikeudenkäyntiasiamies.....this last word is new to me....and quite a mouthful it is....I can't imagine I'll be able to remember it...

[Edit: OK some slight improvements...Mies, jolla oli p*skainen puolustus... ]

[AldenG]

Hmmmm...I read a review of this movie ....and almost fell asleep...either poorly written or a rather banal movie....:d

It just depends on whether the Coen brothers appeal to you. Think of it as their tribute to the whole noir genre.

I liked this one more than A Serious Man, though I did like that one as well.

The Man Who Wasn't There is one of their more overlooked films, I think. I didn't even realize I had missed one until I saw it in Blockbuster. It turned out to be a double-score for me because I also like Billy Bob Thornton. I thought it was a home run.

[Rob A.]

Hmmmm...I read a review of this movie ....and almost fell asleep...either poorly written or a rather banal movie....:d

It just depends on whether the Coen brothers appeal to you. Think of it as their tribute to the whole noir genre.

I liked this one more than A Serious Man, though I did like that one as well.

The Man Who Wasn't There is one of their more overlooked films, I think. I didn't even realize I had missed one until I saw it in Blockbuster. It turned out to be a double-score for me because I also like Billy Bob Thornton. I thought it was a home run.

OK...I'll take your word for it...I seem to remember seeing in Blockbusters, too...maybe I'll give it another look....

[rob34]

Inge (uusikielemme.fi) had me drill this with siellä/täällä/tässä and I have NEVER had any issues with it. Definitely worth the fee.

[AldenG]

I haven't seen what review you read, Rob, but it strikes me that any reviewer of a Coen brothers film that focuses on plot has already missed the entire point of the exercise.

[AldenG]

Among quasi-literal translations, I guess Olematon mies (the non-existent man) would feel to me truest to the sense if not the strictest literal meaning of the English title. I'm sure I'd go with that if it were up to me.

What we've been overlooking here is that the English title is mildly absurd in itself, and deliberately so. I think Olematon mies captures that rather nicely.

I can only suppose the title is an allusion to Antigonish by William Hughes Mearns, which I just remembered this morning:

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

When I came home last night at three
The man was waiting there for me
But when I looked around the hall
I couldn’t see him there at all!

Go away, go away, don’t you come back any more!
Go away, go away, and please don’t slam the door

Last night I saw upon the stair
A little man who wasn’t there
He wasn’t there again today
Oh, how I wish he’d go away

Maybe the translated title is also an allusion to a translation of that poem? That's probably giving too much credit to the distributor. I can't tell, since I can't find a translation of the poem.