Sinuhe 2011

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:10 pm

antaa uskoa, antaa kirjoittaa = let believe, let write



Re: Sinuhe 2011

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Pursuivant
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:29 pm

"Pölhö" is a little less than "idiot"... Maybe "called her silly" is appropriate level.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

maximumforum
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:13 am

Luulen, että tämä kumarrusmatka[1] ei ollut isälleni mikään helppo matka. Hän oli elänyt ikänsä köyhien lääkärinä köyhien kaupunginosassa ja vieraantunut temppelistä ja Elämän talaosta. Nyt hänen oli muiden varattomien isien tavoin jonotettava temppelin hallinnollisella osatolla odottaen, milloin ylhäinen pappi suvaitsi ottaa hänet vastaan.
Näen heidät edessäni nytkin, kaikki nuo köyhät isät, jotka paras vaate yllään istuvat temppelin pihassa kunnianhimoisesti uneksien pojilleen parempaa elämää kuin he itse ovat saaneet osakseen.
He tulivat Thebaan usein matkojen takaa jokinveneiden matkustajina eväitä mukanaan ja panevat varansa ovenvartijain ja kirjurien lahjomiseen päästäkseen kultakirjaisen, kalliilla voiteella sivellyn papin puheille[2].
I thought, that this bowtrip wasn't to my father an easy trip. He had lived his life as the poors' doctor in the poors' city part and become alienated from the temple and Life's house. Now he had to queue in other needy fathers' way in the temple's administration part waiting, when the high priest deigned to recieve him.
I see them in front of me now too, all those poor fathers, who dressed in best clothes sitting in the temple's yard ambitiously dreaming for their boys better lives than they themselves had gotten.
They came to Teba often behind trips as riverboat passengers with provisions along and put their goods for bribing doorguards and scribes in order for them to reach goldenbooks, expensive ointment spread to priest's speech.
Hän nyrpistää nenäänsä heidän hajulleen, hän puhuttelee heitä töykeästi. Silti Ammon tarvitsee lakkaamatta uusia palvelijoita.
Rikkautensa ja mahtavuutensa kasvaessa hän kuluttaa yhä suurempia määrä kirjoitustaitoisia, mutta silti jokainen isä pitää yhä jumalallisen armona[3], jos saa poikansa sijoitetuksi temppeliin, vaikka itse asiassa tuo pojassaan kultaakin arvokkaamman lahjan temppeliin[4].
He sniffed at their smell, he talked to them rudely. Still Amon needed countless new slaves.
In his riches and his power growth he consumes yet bigger amount of literates, but still each father holds equally got grace, if he gets his boy placed into the temple, although ..
Isäni matkaa suosi hyvä onni, sillä hän oli odottanut tuskin iltapäivään, kun hänen ohitseen osui menemään hänen vanha opiskelutoverinsa Ptrahor, josta ajan kuluessa oli tullut kuninkaallinen kallonporaaja.
Isäni rohkeni puhutella häntä ja hän lupasi saapua vierailemaan luonamme omassa korkeassa persoonassaan nähdäksen minut.
My father's trip spelled good luck, for he hardly waited into the evening, when beside him he hit in going his old classmate Ptrahor, who in time became a royal skulldriller.
My father dared to talk with him and he promised to arrive vising our place in his own high person to see me.
  1. kumarrusmatka. Humbling trip, or something?
  2. Huh? I bet I'm looking at this all wrong and that it isn't as difficult as I imagine.
  3. Huh?
  4. My brain broke.

Jukka Aho
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:38 am

maximumforum wrote:
Luulen, että tämä kumarrusmatka[1] ei ollut isälleni mikään helppo matka.
I thought, that this bowtrip wasn't to my father an easy trip.

[1] kumarrusmatka. Humbling trip, or something?
It’s a nonce word, coined by the author on the spot. You could translate it whatever way feels convenient. But obviously it means a trip that was humbling, embarrassing, somewhat humiliating experience to the old man, as he had to bow his head in honor of men he did not necessarily feel would have deserved that honor from him, and descend to the level of other men he did not necessarily think of as his peers.
maximumforum wrote:
He tulivat Thebaan usein matkojen takaa jokinveneiden matkustajina eväitä mukanaan ja panevat varansa ovenvartijain ja kirjurien lahjomiseen päästäkseen kultakirjaisen, kalliilla voiteella sivellyn papin puheille[2].
They came to Teba often behind trips as riverboat passengers with provisions along and put their goods for bribing doorguards and scribes in order for them to reach goldenbooks, expensive ointment spread to priest's speech.

[2] Huh? I bet I'm looking at this all wrong and that it isn't as difficult as I imagine.
Break it down to components like this:

He tulivat Thebaan
They came to Theba

usein matkojen takaa,
often from great distances
(matkojen takaa = “from great distances”)

jokiveneiden matkustajina,
as riverboat passengers

eväitä mukanaan,
provisions along with them

ja panevat varansa ovenvartijain ja kirjurien lahjomiseen
and spent (all?) their funds/wealth towards bribing the doorguards and scribes

päästäkseen kultakirjaisen, kalliilla voiteella sivellyn papin puheille.
in order to get an audience/appointment with a priest adorned with golden embroidery and expensive ointment

päästä puheille = to get an appointment/audience/hearing with somebody; to be bestowed the opportunity to talk with someone (who is possibly a bit hard to reach; busy; important)

kultakirjainen... well, this could be translated as “possessing a golden book”, but I believe it refers to decorative embroidery in clothing (kirjailu) rather than book (kirja). The words kirjailu, kirjo, kirjoitus, kirjain, kirja are all related, and kirja is probably the latest addition and abstraction.
maximumforum wrote:
mutta silti jokainen isä pitää yhä jumalallisen armona[3], jos saa poikansa sijoitetuksi temppeliin, vaikka itse asiassa tuo pojassaan kultaakin arvokkaamman lahjan temppeliin[4].
but still each father holds equally got grace, if he gets his boy placed into the temple, although ..

[3] Huh?
[4] My brain broke
..., yet every (single) father considers it (a display of) divine grace if they can get their son placed in the Temple, despite that they are in fact giving, in their son, the Temple a gift that is (far) more precious than gold.
znark

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:24 pm

Since the whole point was getting the child's name registered in a book, it would make sense for the "kultakirjainen" to refer to the book.

Jukka Aho
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:36 pm

jahasjahas wrote:Since the whole point was getting the child's name registered in a book, it would make sense for the "kultakirjainen" to refer to the book.
Ah. OK. If it was about that, I missed the context. But what is “golden” about the book? Literally golden or figuratively golden? And did they have actual books in those days... I thought they were more like scrolls?
znark

AldenG
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:05 pm

In Finglish, matkojen takaa means "from behind voyages," sort of "after voyages." There is an idiom "kovan työn takaa," the result of hard work. In general, X:n takaa either means literally "from behind X" or figuratively that X is/was required to reach or accomplish something.

That's how matkojen takaa comes to mean "from great distances."
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

Rob A.
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Rob A. » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:30 am

Jukka Aho wrote:
jahasjahas wrote:Since the whole point was getting the child's name registered in a book, it would make sense for the "kultakirjainen" to refer to the book.
Ah. OK. If it was about that, I missed the context. But what is “golden” about the book? Literally golden or figuratively golden? And did they have actual books in those days... I thought they were more like scrolls?
Probably being a bit literal there, Jukka ;)

I think the English word "book" is often used when referring to ancient written things in a generic kind of way. I would think in ancient Egypt they would have been using clay tablets, steles and columns to carry written messages.

[Aside: The English word, "book", comes from a Germanic/proto Germanic word referring to the beech tree... Beechbark, being smooth, was often used once those ancient Northerners acquired writing skills..... And it isn't unusual today to see hearts and initials carve into the trunk of ....kauniit, mahatavat pyökit kauniiassa puistossa tai puutarhassa. I hope this last bit is how a Finn would say it...;) Oh, and apparently, etymologically, the Finnish word, pyökki is cognate with the English word, "book" ...I would never have guessed that was so....though it does seem a bit obvious now that I know.

maximumforum
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:02 am

Rob A. wrote:pyökki
Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja wrote:Suomessa vain istutettuna kasvavan pyökin (Fagus silvatica) nimitys on lainaa ruotsissa. Muinaisruotsissa sana on ollut b?k tai bök, nykyruotsin asu on bok. Suomen-ruotsin murteissa sana esiintyy myös asussa byök. Suomen kirjakielessä pyökki on esiintynyt Agricolasta alkaen.
The '?' is what looks like an o with a dash on top.
Bok is both book and beech in Swedish. That's cool to know!
Last edited by maximumforum on Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Pursuivant » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:02 am

I would still go with the priests having gold frills and embroidery on their tunics. Sinuhe will learn how to write nicely on papyrus later on, and Egyptian "books" were indeed scrolls, like were the Greek and Roman ones. Flat bound books as we're used to them came fashionable only in the later centuries.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

maximumforum
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by maximumforum » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:13 pm

Mutta en lainkaan aavistanut hänen tarkoitustaan hänen antaessaan minulle tuon tehtävän, sillä ojentaessaan minulle ebenholtsilippaansa hän oli samalla valinnut minut apulaisekseen faraon palatsiin.
But I haven't anticipated his reason/meaning in his giving me that task, for in offering me his <?> he had also chosen me to be a helper in the pharaoh's palace.

ebenholtsilippaansa?
ebenholtsi + lippa + nsa?
What is this? I only see eboniitti in eb on Nykysuomen Sanakirja. Is it a proper name? But it's not capitalized..
EDIT: ebenholtsi = eebenpuu, from random page by google.
And there is eebenholtsi in the dictionary. But Sinuhe says ebenholtsi.

AldenG
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:26 pm

maximumforum wrote:
Mutta en lainkaan aavistanut hänen tarkoitustaan hänen antaessaan minulle tuon tehtävän, sillä ojentaessaan minulle ebenholtsilippaansa hän oli samalla valinnut minut apulaisekseen faraon palatsiin.
But I haven't anticipated his reason/meaning in his giving me that task, for in offering me his <?> he had also chosen me to be a helper in the pharaoh's palace.

ebenholtsilippaansa?
ebenholtsi + lippa + nsa?
What is this? I only see eboniitti in eb on Nykysuomen Sanakirja. Is it a proper name? But it's not capitalized..
EDIT: ebenholtsi = eebenpuu, from random page by google.
And there is eebenholtsi in the dictionary. But Sinuhe says ebenholtsi.
A page or two earlier, Sinuhe wrote "Hän ojensi minulle mustapuisen lippaan, jossa säilytti työvälineitään," so in this case lipas is an ebony case for Ptahor's surgical instruments.

Anyway, Ptahor extended (reached, handed) the case to Sinuhe but didn't give it as a gift.

ebenholtsi + lipas/lippaa + nsa
[Earlier misconstruction and explanation corrected here]

Ebenholz is German for ebony (ebon + wood), and Waltari simply transcribed it to Finnish.

Also, apulaisekseen has the possessive ending -en, so Ptahor chose Sinuhe to be his assistant in the pharaoh's palace, not just an assistant.
Last edited by AldenG on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:30 pm

Ah, you got misled there. Its not basic form " lippa" but " lipas" ... Archaic for casket or box. You have a "lipasto" surely. A chest of drawers.

lippa, lipan
lipas, lippaan


If Ptahor had given his visor, it would been "lippansa". Now Ptahor gave his "doctors bag", a n ebony wood box.

Lipas is in modern language used more when talking of guns, the magazine. But its used in words like "korulipas", so jewel-box.

Tricky innit ;)
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

AldenG
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by AldenG » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:14 pm

Pursuivant wrote:
Tricky innit ;)
Worse than tricky: lazy.

I should have looked it up because "lipas" occurred to me, but only as a hypothetical because of -as/-aan. Not recognizing it as a word outside of lipasto, I first went looking for an interpretation of lippa that worked. And I convinced myself I had found one. Most of the time I actually do know better than that on morphology, not to mention just recognizing words.

I don't normally remove/edit posts called out for errors, but in this case it gave prominence to critical misinformation, so I'm going to go correct it.

I sure wish we had an an [ s ] BBCode.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.

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jahasjahas
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Re: Sinuhe 2011

Post by jahasjahas » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:17 am

You might have also heard of "Pandoran lipas".


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