Sinuhe 2011

[Rob A.]

...merkitä kuninkaiden luetteloon vanhempansa ylhäisiksi. I'm having trouble understanding why vanhemmat changes to vanhempansa. Or maybe I am just forgetting one of the rules of consonant gradation when a possessive suffix is added??

To add more context, Rob's fighting with "joka on antanut ... merkitä kuninkaiden luetteloon vanhempanasa ylhäisiksi."

"joka on antanut merkitä vanhempansa ylhäisiksi kuninkaiden luetteloon." would be a more common word order.

"Who has had his parents added as nobles to the list of kings."

Thanks...I wasn't getting quite the right sense of kuninkaiden luetteloon..."to the list of kings"....I was thinking of it in a more English language way.... "to the kings' list"...a list complied "by" the kings (...or delegates), rather than a list "of" (all) the kings... Also this shifting around between kuningas, hallitsija, farao is still a bit confusing, though I suppose that will eventually become clear...

[AldenG]

While we're on that sentence, luettelo is a useful word to point out because it relates to a discussion earlier in the thread:

Tahdon myös faraot lukea ihmisiksi. I also (want to) count pharaohs as humans.

That was an unusual sense of lue/n-lukea, but then there is the derived verb luettele/n-luetella, which is a frequentative verb with exactly that sense: to make or recite a directory/catalogue/itemization/list of things. The result is a luettelo, which is a bit more official and presumably more exhaustive than a mere list. List in itself would be lista -- as in ruokalista (menu, food+list) to give some perspective. So a luettelo is more official than a menu but not more official than a puhelinluettelo (phone book).

A wife could luetella her husband's faults.

Here's a live example from Google: Hän luetteli minulle faktat suomalaisesta rokotusohjelmasta, where rokotus+ohjelma is vaccination program.

But in the end, a luettelo is just a luettelo. You'll be finding instances of or uses for that word much more often than you will for luettele/n-luetella.

[Rob A.]

Next "installment"....

1. Sillä kaikki tämä minulla on eikä mitään ole minulta ottettu pois. Yhä pelkäävät orjat keppiäni ja vartijat kumartavat päänsä ja laskevat kätensä polvien tasalle edessäni. Mutta askelteni ala on mitattu eikä mikään laiva pääse laskemaan rantatyrskyihin. Siksi en minä, Sinuhe, koskaan enää ole tunteva mustan mullan tuoksua kevätyössä ja siksi kirjoitan tämän.

Fairly literally:
..."For all of this I still have, and nothing was taken away from me. Still the slaves fear my cane and the guards bow their heads and lower their hands to knee level before me. But the area of my steps was measured nor any ship be permitted to land on the beach shore. That is why I, Sinuhe, no longer am sensing the smell of the black earth on a summer night and that is why I write this."

a. ...tunteva mustan mullan tuoksua....... this gave me a bit of trouble...I think probably simply means ..."smell the black earth..." ????

2. Kuitenkin minun nimeni oli kerran kirjoitettu faron kultaiseen kirjaan ja asuin kultaisessa talossa kuninkaan oikealla puolella. Minun sanani painoi enemmän kuin Kemin maan mahtavien sana, ylhäiset lähettivät minulle lahjoja ja kultaketjut kietoivat kaulaani. Minulla oli kaikki, mitä ihminen haluaa, mutta ihmisenä halusin enemmän kuin ihminen voi saavuttaa. Siksi olen tällä, missä olen. Minut karkoitettiin Thebasta farao Horemhebin kudentena hallitusvuonna, jotta minut löytäisiin kuoliaaksi kuin koira, jos palaisin, jotta minut litistettäisiin kuin sammakko kivien väliin, jos astuisin askelen pois alalta, mikä asuttavakeseni on määrätty. Tämä on kuninkaan käsky, faraon, joka kerra oli ystäväni.

... "However my name was once written in the pharaoh's golden book and I lived in a golden house on the king's right side. My words weighed more than the word of the powerful of the Land of Kem, nobles sent to me gifts and gold chains encircled my neck. I had all, that a man wants, but as a man I wanted more than a man can get. That is way I am here, where I am. They banished me from Thebes during the sixth year of the rule of Pharaoh Horemheb, as such I would be beaten to death like a dog, if I would leave, as such I would be flattened like a frog between stones, if I stepped a step away from the area, (at) which my habitation has been decreed. This is the king's command, the pharaoh, who once was my friend."

a. ...asuin kultaisessa talossa kuninkaan oikealla puolella.... I'm not sure I have this quite right...."I lived in a golden house on the king's right side."....???

b. ...kuin Kemin maan mahtavien sana,....maybe this means ..."than the word of the powerful (people) of the Land of Kem." ??

c. [jotta[/i]...I think this means, in this instance, "as such"??

d. mikä asuttavakeseni on määrätty....I think the sense of this is: "from the place where he has been ordered to live."

3. Mutta mitä muuta voi odottaa alhaissyntyiseltä, joka on antanut pyyhkiä kuninkaiden nimet hallistsijain luettelosta ja kirjurien merkitä kuninkaiden luetteloon vahempansa ylhäisiksi. Minä näin hänen kruunauksensa, minä näin miten hänen päähänsä laskettiin punainen ja valkoinen kruunu. Siitä laskien kuudentena hallituksensa vuotena hän minut karkotti. Mutta kirjurien laskun mukaan se oli hänen hallitusvuosistaan kolmaskymmenestoinen. Eikö siis kaikki kirjoittaminen ennen ja nyt ole valhetta.

..."But what else can be expected from a commoner, who has allowed the names of kings to be wiped from the list of rulers and (has allowed) the clerks to mark to the list of kings his parents as nobles. I saw his coronation, I saw how they lowered the red and white crown to his head. From it while counting the sixth year of his reign, he exiled me. But according to the clerks' account it was his thirty-second year of his reign. Has not all then been written before and now is a lie."

a. Mutta mitä muuta voi odottaa....and this seems to be a good example why careful pronunciation is important in Finnish...."But what else can be expected..." ...The Finnish sounds a bit amusing to my ear, but I'm advised that no Finn would see any humour here....
b. laskea....this is a word with many meanings...have I got the right sense here?
c. Eikö siis kaikki kirjoittaminen ennen....Have I got this right?

4. Häntä, joka eli totuudesta, minä halveksin hänen elämänsä päivinä hänen heikkoutensa tähden ja kauhistuin tuhoa, jonka hän kylvi Kemin maahan totuutensa tähden. Nyt on hänen kostonsa minulle, että itse tahdon elää totuudesta, en tosin hänen jumalansa tähden, vaan itseni tähden. Totuus on viiltävä veitsi totuus on parantumaton haava ihmisessä, totuus on lipeä, joka katkerana syö sydäntä. Siksi nuoruutensa ja voimansa päivinä mies pakenee totuutta ilotaloihin ja sokaisee silmänsä työllä ja kaikenlaisilla toimilla, matkoilla ja huvituksilla, vallalla ja rakennuksilla. Mutta tulee päivä, jolloin totuus lyö hänen läivitseen kuin keihäs, eikä hänellä sen jälkeen ole enää iloa ajatuksistaan eikä kättensä töistä, vaan hän on yksin, ihmisten keskellä hän on yksin eivätkä jumalat tuo apua hänen yksinäisyyteensä. Tämän kirjoitan minä, Sinuhe, hyvin tietäen, että tekoni ovat olleet pahoja ja tieni vääriä, mutta myös hyvin tietäen, ettei kukaan niistä ottaisi opikseen, vaikka tämän joutuisi lukemaan. Siksi vain itseni tähden tämän kirjoitan. Peskööt muut syntinsä puhtaiksi Ammonin pyhällä vedellä, minä, Sinuhe, puhdistaudun kirjoittamalla tekoni muistiin. Jättäkööt muut sydämensä valheet punnittavaksi Osiriksen vaa’alla minä, Sinuhe, punnitsen sydämeni ruokokynällä.

This paragraph got a bit tough for me….

...“He, who has lived truthfully, I have despised him during the days of his life due to his weakness and I have abhorred the destruction, which he spread through the Land of Kem for the sake of his truth. Now is his revenge to me, that I myself live from truth, not although for the sake of his god, only for my on sake. Truth is a slicing knife truth is an unhealing woiund in humans truth is lye, which if bitter eats the heart. That is why during the days of his youth and power man flees from truth to the brothel and blinds his eyes through work and all types of chores, travel and amusements, through power and buildings. But the day comes, in which the truth strikes through him like a spear, nor has he after it any longer joy from his thoughts nor from the work of his hands, only he is alone, among hu8mans he is alone, nor do the gods help him in his loneliness. This I write I Sinuhe, well knowing, that my deeds have been bad and my ways wrong, but also well knowing, that no one would learn from it, although this (they were) forced to read. That is why only for myself I want to write this. Let others cleanse their sins with the holy water of Ammon, I, Sinuhe, cleanse myself by writing my deeds into memory. Let others weigh the lies in their heart on the scales of Osiris I, Sinuhe, weight my hear through a reed pencil.”

Well, I think this is fairly close… ??.

a. Nyt on hänen kostonsa minulle, ….I stumbled around a bit with this…What would be a good translation?
b. … totuus on lipeä, joka katkerana syö sydäntä.….I think my translation of this is a bit awkward?
c. …ettei kukaan niistä ottaisi opikseen….I think I need a better translation for this…
d. Jättäkööt muut sydämensä valheet .....and a better translation for this...


A bit of a long post....but any comments are appreciated ... I transcribed the Finnish version by hand for practice...hopefully I haven't left any typos behind...

[jahasjahas]

a. ...tunteva mustan mullan tuoksua....... this gave me a bit of trouble...I think probably simply means ..."smell the black earth..." ????

"en... koskaan enää ole tunteva mustan mullan tuoksua"
I shall never again feel the scent of fresh soil (or however you want to translate musta multa )

c. jotta...I think this means, in this instance, "as such"??
d. mikä asuttavakeseni on määrätty....I think the sense of this is: "from the place where he has been ordered to live."

I'd say "so that". It's a bit of a strange way to put it, but he's listing the conditions of his banishment. "They banished me ... so that I would be beaten ("lyötäisiin", not "löytäisiin") ... if I were to return (not "leave"), so that I would be flattened ... if I were to take a single step away from the place I was ordered to live in.

A more modern way of saying "ala, mikä asuttavakseni (not "asuttavakeseni") on määrätty" would be "paikka, joka on määrätty asuttavakseni".

Siitä laskien kuudentena hallituksensa vuotena hän minut karkotti. Mutta kirjurien laskun mukaan se oli hänen hallitusvuosistaan kolmaskymmenestoinen. Eikö siis kaikki kirjoittaminen ennen ja nyt ole valhetta.

From it while counting the sixth year of his reign, he exiled me. But according to the clerks' account it was his thirty-second year of his reign. Has not all then been written before and now is a lie."

b. laskea....this is a word with many meanings...have I got the right sense here?
c. Eikö siis kaikki kirjoittaminen ennen....Have I got this right?

Let's simplify again: "Kuudentena hallituksensa vuonna (or "hallitsemisvuonnaan" to sound less archaic) siitä hetkestä laskien hän karkoitti minut."
On the sixth year of his rule, counting from that moment, he banished me.

Isn't therefore all writing, then and now, lies?

...“He, who has lived truthfully, I have despised him during the days of his life due to his weakness and I have abhorred the destruction, which he spread through the Land of Kem for the sake of his truth. Now is his revenge to me, that I myself live from truth, not although for the sake of his god, only for my on sake. Truth is a slicing knife truth is an unhealing woiund in humans truth is lye, which if bitter eats the heart. That is why during the days of his youth and power man flees from truth to the brothel and blinds his eyes through work and all types of chores, travel and amusements, through power and buildings. But the day comes, in which the truth strikes through him like a spear, nor has he after it any longer joy from his thoughts nor from the work of his hands, only he is alone, among hu8mans he is alone, nor do the gods help him in his loneliness. This I write I Sinuhe, well knowing, that my deeds have been bad and my ways wrong, but also well knowing, that no one would learn from it, although this (they were) forced to read. That is why only for myself I want to write this. Let others cleanse their sins with the holy water of Ammon, I, Sinuhe, cleanse myself by writing my deeds into memory. Let others weigh the lies in their heart on the scales of Osiris I, Sinuhe, weight my hear through a reed pencil.”

He, who lived of truth, I despised during (the days of) his life due to his weakness, ... Now his revenge to me is that I myself want to live of truth... lye which bitterly eats the heart... and from that moment on he finds no joy from his thoughts nor the work of his hands, but is alone ... no one would learn from them (the bad deeds and wrong ways) ... Let others leave the lies in their hearts to be judged on the scales of Osiris

[Rob A.]

Thanks jahasjahas... I've found this Sinuhe exercise really helpful in pulling the language together, so to speak. It's not that I would actually expect to speak like this, but seeing the different words in play...particularly the "small" words...[ which can be hard to remember, particularly their various nuances] is helpful.

Vocabulary seems to be an ongoing issue with my Finnish "experience"....I often find I know the type of action that might be going on...but not the subject or object or indirect object until I look up the meaning of the word stem...

I had hoped there would be more interest in this thread, but I guess it just isn't there....maybe it's all a bit too ambitious....

[AldenG]

I had hoped there would be more interest in this thread, but I guess it just isn't there....maybe it's all a bit too ambitious....

From great ambitions arise great accomplishments. I am certain that as long as you persist, at a certain point before the end of the book, you will notice you have become a fluent reader of Finnish. And that's almost entirely from what you've already studied elsewhere plus the exercise of working through this one book. The only important deficiency then might be vocabulary, but at that point it is easily remedied with other material.

Quite a while before that occurs, you will find that the need to look up stems is diminishing, partly because of growth in your vocabulary and partly as critical mass makes it easier to infer the meaning of many words from their context. Also the kind of parsing you're probably still doing with deliberation now will become much more automatic and unconscious. You will find that the whole process flows more and more naturally.

Besides, you've almost reached the first sentence (the first of so many) exemplifying the reason I think of Mika Waltari and Mark Twain as brothers across the water. (Let's see if you figure out which sentence I'm talking about. It's within the next few pages.)

Active real-time discussion is nice, but still the value of a thread like this long outlasts the moments of active discussion.

Not every foreigner in Finland or every member of Finland Forum is going to learn to get along in the language, much less read it fluently (as I expect you will come to do). And of those few, not every one will be interested in historical fiction or the kind of wisdom Waltari exemplifies. But there will always be a handful, and this thread will remain a useful resource to them for as long as it remains on FF.

I don't know how much toil lies behind your posts, but your ability to correctly parse sentences (regardless of vocabulary) seems to be advancing more rapidly than I had expected when I recommended this.

Brynne's comments in another thread about her struggles but also successes with the Finnish language got me thinking about how people who are articulate in their own language got that way based only on four things: native aptitude, reading high-quality writing, hearing high-quality speech, and practice. Reading books about the language has almost nothing to do with it. Learning as a non-native is not an identical process, but I still think that points 2 and 3 are the only possible routes to acquiring a good ear and good speech.

On point 2, Waltari is some of the highest-quality writing to be found in the Finnish language and thus (for purposes of actually being able to read and eventually write and eventually speak) it is one of the best possible places to be focusing your attention at present. Thriller-writer Ilkka Remes also happens to be another source of notably high-quality Finnish writing for people who are more action-focused and have less interest in the bigger questions about life. But his books also have a higher threshold of prerequisite ability than Sinuhe because there is a special and deliberate simplicity and repetition to Sinuhe's writing.

Now all of that doesn't mean you have to write out a translation of the entire book in this thread. You'll have to decide when the exercise of translating becomes more burden than help. I would think it's still valuable for a while because, although you ask good questions, not everything that needs comment or correction arises in them. Probably I glossed over a bit too much in my first reading, and I think you're choosing to err (if it is error) in the other direction. Possibly it just means you have more patience than I did back then. Your method of copying and highlighting the original works very well to put your questions into context, I think, and I hope you'll continue that indefinitely. Of course you may at some point want to transition to cut-and-paste rather than retyping.

I'd just say again: don't forget the importance of regularly re-reading what you've already worked out. That's where a lot of the neural connections get fixed in your mind, and thus where a lot of your gains in forward momentum will occur.

[onkko]

And i would to add that most of what you talk goes way over my head, im not linquistic im just simple electrician!
My way in english was thru "@#$% have all in english and movies are also in english!!" fck this sht, i need to learn it.
I never learned more than what verb is and to be honest im lowly educated but i do what i want to do, others do what they can.
I have never actually cared how words are made, i just copy what i see like a parrot. I learned in school that "My name is Hannu, how do you do" "there is a cat, no cat is a dog" and such but that was only start. Today i can swear like drunken sailor in english and thats cool

I cant help you on your way when you want to know if something is 2ndparticleprepositionalverbsaccusativespreposition but i can help if you want to know what it means, thats if i can translate it You probably know translating meaning and literal is hard.

[AldenG]

P.S. I realize your ambition is not only to read easily, to write, or get along speaking Finnish. But having those skills, or at least the first one, will be of infinite help in your more esoteric pursuits involving the language.

And onkko makes a good point about parroting, too. Parrots are so much more intelligent and insightful than we used to give them credit for. It turns out that parroting is not so dumb after all. As I often say, imitation is actually the core of language. And in fact, even parrot birds can communicate in human language. (They're simply not always convinced it's worth their effort.) As they parrot our talk, it begins to have meaning to them.

[Upphew]

I had hoped there would be more interest in this thread, but I guess it just isn't there....maybe it's all a bit too ambitious....

Interest is there, but big walls of text take time to read and comprehend and take a lot of time to answer... and when you have the time you find jahasjahas has already answered, and probably better than I would have done.

[j.juuppeli]

I had hoped there would be more interest in this thread, but I guess it just isn't there....maybe it's all a bit too ambitious....

Interest is there, but big walls of text take time to read and comprehend and take a lot of time to answer... and when you have the time you find jahasjahas has already answered, and probably better than I would have done.

I completely agree!!!






____________________
http://www.flirtfair.fi/

[j.petsku]

Upphew wrote:
Rob A. wrote:
I had hoped there would be more interest in this thread, but I guess it just isn't there....maybe it's all a bit too ambitious....

Interest is there, but big walls of text take time to read and comprehend and take a lot of time to answer... and when you have the time you find jahasjahas has already answered, and probably better than I would have done.


I completely agree!!!

Ditto. Rob, I've been following this thread with great interest, and am impressed by your ambition. I agree completely with AldenG in that, if you stick with this, you'll see huge strides in your reading comprehension, which seems to be your primary tool for language acquisition. Though I'm sure it feels rather laborious now, you'll find that it gets exponentially easier as the cadence and vocabulary of the book start to sink in. When you pick up another book, you'll suddenly feel that your vocab is lacking because the subject matter or style of the new book is different, but the confusion over grammatical constructions, the various lauseenvastike etc. etc. will have largely and miraculously vanished! Anyhow, just wanted to send a note of encouragement. I hope to contribute more when I have more time.

[Rob A.]

Ditto. Rob, I've been following this thread with great interest, and am impressed by your ambition. I agree completely with AldenG in that, if you stick with this, you'll see huge strides in your reading comprehension, which seems to be your primary tool for language acquisition. Though I'm sure it feels rather laborious now, you'll find that it gets exponentially easier as the cadence and vocabulary of the book start to sink in. When you pick up another book, you'll suddenly feel that your vocab is lacking because the subject matter or style of the new book is different, but the confusion over grammatical constructions, the various lauseenvastike etc. etc. will have largely and miraculously vanished! Anyhow, just wanted to send a note of encouragement. I hope to contribute more when I have more time.

Thanks....it definitely is getting easier and easier to read Finnish....but vocabulary is a "real bear".....with other major European languages...well...west European, anyway.....there usually is enough of a clue in the words, that at least you can get a sense of what the word might mean...not so with Finnish, except for obviously borrowed words.... But on the other hand as Alden has said, once you do know the stem meaning it will often appear ...allowing also for constant gradation vowel lowering, dropping, shortening, ghost consonants, etc.....in other related words.

[Aside: In a lot a ways learning Finnish is like really learning another language...with French, Spanish, Italian and even German and Dutch....you could argue...especially for French and Spanish that it's more like learning a dialect that a fully foreign language...]

I find I often know the nature of some action from the case endings...though I may not know until I figure out the stem meaning who is doing what to whom....

Sinuhe is good because of the repetition....I'm not too concerned about the old-fashioned words and turns-of-phrase...I think...optimistically??...that will sort itself out over time.... Though if I end up sounding like some old-time, backwoods academic, I suppose that's better than being totally incomprehensible.... Or thinking I'm "fluent" if I can order: Kaksi kahvia ja yksi Berliininmunkki, kiitos....

[Upphew]

Thanks....it definitely is getting easier and easier to read Finnish....but vocabulary is a "real bear".....with other major European languages...well...west European, anyway.....there usually is enough of a clue in the words, that at least you can get a sense of what the word might mean...

<offtopic>
And thanks to that I passed the mandatory Swedish in school, barely. Sadly it doesn't help with producing text, nor talking...
</offtopic>

[Pursuivant]

Iloitkoon koko Vantaanlaakso ja kännätköön Keminmaa. Totisesti tätä minä iloitsen, siinä Rob A lukee kirjaa onnesta soikeana, vastoin kuin koululapset tiiliskiveään kiviriippana kantaen. Mutta tämän kirjoitti hän, joka on yksinäinen maanpaossa siellä, missä vessassa on kokolattiamatto ja putket ovat talon ulkopuolella.

Mind you - it has a serious "biblical feel" to it all, so even the dialogue later on is very direct, the "pompous literary style" is not something that one would use in colloquial speech. As for obscure grammar excersize... excellent. And a good story. Maybe the artist Thothmes can teach you of how to approach Finnish Grammar... eventually, you just don't ask "why"

[Rob A.]

Iloitkoon koko Vantaanlaakso ja kännätköön Keminmaa. Totisesti tätä minä iloitsen, siinä Rob A lukee kirjaa onnesta soikeana, vastoin kuin koululapset tiiliskiveään kiviriippana kantaen. Mutta tämän kirjoitti hän, joka on yksinäinen maanpaossa siellä, missä vessassa on kokolattiamatto ja putket ovat talon ulkopuolella.

Yes....and for me wading through Shakespeare was a bit of a pain in high shcool....

"Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears, I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do....blah, blah, blah..."
I was typically thinking about all the beer that was waiting to be drunk that weekend ...

But I don't understand kännätköön....I assume you meant kääntäköön...???... "Let Kemi translate"...????

Oh well ...it doesn't matter....