Need Help With A Translation

Learn and discuss the Finnish language with Finn's and foreigners alike
Rob A.
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Rob A. » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:41 am

jahasjahas wrote:I remember researching the Tolkien thing once. It seems that his earlier Elvish languages were more clearly influenced by Finnish. The versions used in the novels, not so much. He tried to avoid any direct references to real languages. He did mention in one of his letters that "It [discovering Finnish] was like discovering a wine-cellar filled with bottles of amazing wine of a kind and flavour never tasted before. It quite intoxicated me."
Yes....thanks...I dug a little further and the rest of the letter written in 1955 to W. H. Auden said ..."...and I gave up the attempt to invent an 'unrecorded' Germanic language, and my 'own language' - or series of invented languages - became heavily Finnicized in phonetic pattern and structure."

So it's the "sound" and the "feel" of his various elf languages that lean on Finnish.... A week or so ago I overheard an old man speaking a "strange" language in a rather loud voice. It sounded somewhat familiar and yet still totally incomprehensible....it also sounded beautiful, if I can put it that way... I listened for a moment...no...it wasn't Finnish....Estonian? No, not Estonian... I starting to wonder about the Sami languages when the man glanced at me...so I asked him....Hungarian...... Of course..... :wink:

But I can relate to Tolkien's sentiments about the Finnish language....maybe not with his intellectual rigour, but there is something mesmerizing about it....it's beautiful.... even something as prosaic as this has some kind of charm to it:

"Lihapiirakka kahdella nakilla."

But, of course, I wouldn't expect native speakers to understand, they've had to live with the language their whole lives.... :wink:



Re: Need Help With A Translation

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Upphew
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:13 am

Upphew wrote:
Pursuivant wrote:I think a biker with anything tattooed in his forehead means "piss off" without a tangent. :lol:
What this means then? http://naurunappula.com/1035881/ensimma ... n-nimi.jpg
Just some more info about the face tattoo: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-12 ... k-trm-kaik
*naamapalmu*
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jahasjahas
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by jahasjahas » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:27 am

cors187 wrote:I cant see how strength and honor fits into this lords prayer??,please explain??
Power is not strength and glory is not honor.
The Finnish word voima can mean "strength" or "power". The Finnish word kunnia can mean "honor" or "glory". Check your dictionary.

The Finnish translator of the Lord's Prayer has chosen the words "voima" and "kunnia" to represent the original Greek words. The English translator has chosen the words "power" and "glory".

I don't know how to make this any simpler.

cors187
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by cors187 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Lets put power and strength on hold .

Now Glory and honor, dont worry about the old greek language.

Glory as a singular word must denote "more" than a feeling or response to a feeling, glory is the encompassing effect, a legitimate out flowing and total committed reality of the inner and the outer.Having no end until this inner and outer glory decides the boundaries of its reality.Example being "A kingdom crowned with glory"
The kingdom at first was honored by glory and it continued in everlasting glory.

Honor is a constitute of behavior and, a choice of mindset based on certain principle, namely "righteousness".So its effects and boundaries are not the same as glory.Example being 'A kingdom crowned with Honor"
The kingdom at first was honored with "something"

They not really interchangeable as they have different characteristics, chief among them is "compulsion" or of "compulsory means"
Glory is without compulsory means as it flows unceasingly without choice , where as honor is a choice and compulsory for glory to be established.

So there must be a singular word in finnish that lends itself more to glory rather than honor.

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jahasjahas
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by jahasjahas » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:33 pm

Are you... saying that the Finnish language is wrong and you are right? I don't know how to argue against that.

Upphew
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Upphew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:45 pm

cors187 wrote:Lets put power and strength on hold .

Now Glory and honor, dont worry about the old greek language.

Glory as a singular word must denote "more" than a feeling or response to a feeling, glory is the encompassing effect, a legitimate out flowing and total committed reality of the inner and the outer.Having no end until this inner and outer glory decides the boundaries of its reality.Example being "A kingdom crowned with glory"
The kingdom at first was honored by glory and it continued in everlasting glory.

Honor is a constitute of behavior and, a choice of mindset based on certain principle, namely "righteousness".So its effects and boundaries are not the same as glory.Example being 'A kingdom crowned with Honor"
The kingdom at first was honored with "something"

They not really interchangeable as they have different characteristics, chief among them is "compulsion" or of "compulsory means"
Glory is without compulsory means as it flows unceasingly without choice , where as honor is a choice and compulsory for glory to be established.

So there must be a singular word in finnish that lends itself more to glory rather than honor.
http://ilmainensanakirja.fi/sanakirja/g ... ooseLang=1 suomeksi: glooria, kunnia, maine, ylistys
http://ilmainensanakirja.fi/sanakirja/h ... ooseLang=1 suomeksi: kunnia, kunnioittaa, kunnioitus
Damn! Maybe you should hint the admins of ilmainensanakirja.fi that they are giving wrong translations!
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jahasjahas
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by jahasjahas » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:55 pm

Point being: you can't expect different languages to make the same distinctions between certain concepts.

"Hit" can't mean both "osua" and "lyödä". They are two different things!

Bavarian
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Bavarian » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:57 pm

Upphew wrote:
Pursuivant wrote:I think a biker with anything tattooed in his forehead means "piss off" without a tangent. :lol:
What this means then? http://naurunappula.com/1035881/ensimma ... n-nimi.jpg
Who would want a face tattoo anyway? How about one of these? :ohno:

cors187
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by cors187 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:03 pm

jahasjahas wrote:Are you... saying that the Finnish language is wrong and you are right? I don't know how to argue against that.
I have learned through sad experience to call something wrong when i don't know anything about it. ie Finnish
But i will still post on the power +/- strength.

Jukka Aho
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Jukka Aho » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:09 pm

cors187 wrote:So there must be a singular word in finnish that lends itself more to glory rather than honor.
There’s no requirement that two languages match 1:1 in the scope of meaning of their words. Quite to the contrary: when comparing two different languages, there will nearly always be some overlap, extra connotations, or those pesky too narrowly-defined or too broadly-defined “foreign concepts” for which there exists no single, compact word which would be the exact equivalent in the other language, with nothing added or nothing taken away. And it goes both ways. You work around these differences by adding more words, or by using a different expression altogether, or by letting the context suggest the correct interpretation.
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cors187
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by cors187 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:23 pm

Jukka Aho wrote:
cors187 wrote:So there must be a singular word in finnish that lends itself more to glory rather than honor.
There’s no requirement that two languages match 1:1 in the scope of meaning of their words. Quite to the contrary: when comparing two different languages, there will nearly always be some overlap, extra connotations, or those pesky too narrowly-defined or too broadly-defined “foreign concepts” for which there exists no single, compact word which would be the exact equivalent in the other language, with nothing added or nothing taken away. And it goes both ways. You work around these differences by adding more words, or by using a different expression altogether, or by letting the context suggest the correct interpretation.
Well in this case , its not that i want a 1:1, its that all 4 words which i am reporting on are English used words, so effectively ,let it be the best translation possible.

Like how is possible to express the word "glory" in English without a definition, and glory requires a rather critical defined definition or it turns into another word.
So lets just say that there must be a Finnish definition of the word "glory" , and another for the word "honor" , and whatever the Finnish word or words is correct.
Just remember in English ,"glory" and "Honor " cannot be judged equal in terms of "definition"

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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by cors187 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:37 pm

jahasjahas wrote:Are you... saying that the Finnish language is wrong and you are right? I don't know how to argue against that.
Actually , that made me think of all the countries that English offered the same conclusion too.
I grew up with English, im sure i fought with my grade3 teacher on the same stand as what your statement declares.
I'm no respecter of English,i just dont know anything else as good, its just some forms of English hold insurmountable qualities, other forms simplify, others still to be mastered.
in·sur·mount·a·ble

Adjective
Too great to be overcome: "an insurmountable problem".

AldenG
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by AldenG » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 pm

jahasjahas wrote:Point being: you can't expect different languages to make the same distinctions between certain concepts.

"Hit" can't mean both "osua" and "lyödä". They are two different things!
Did you mean to write CAN mean? Cuz I've been scratching my head over your intent and context here. Do you mean it's as though cors187 was trying to say hit can't mean both of those?
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jahasjahas
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by jahasjahas » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:49 pm

AldenG wrote:Do you mean it's as though cors187 was trying to say hit can't mean both of those?
Eggs-actly.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Need Help With A Translation

Post by Pursuivant » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:44 pm

Ok, so heres for you drunk elves then in the wine cellar
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


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