If Ruthenian speakers tended to see themselves as Russian in nationality, but they identified with the Ruthenian language rather than standard Russian, then this is another problem for the parallel between Russia:Ruthenian and Sweden:Finland Swedish.foca wrote: National affiliation works on many different levels . Ruthenians did not want to be Hungarians or Germans , they wanted to be " Russians" (yes , most often Russians not Ukrainians). Political relation of Ukraine to the outside world including Russia or the Russian position on the question of Rusins in the Hubsburg empire played almost absolutely no role in survival or disappearance of Ruthenian ( especially if you take into consideration that literary Ukrainian is really a 19th century invention) .In case of the Ruthenian and Ukrainian languages in the Habsburg empire the polish question played a much bigger role than the situation in Ukraine ( however you may define that territory/nation). thus , at least in Ruthenian case, it does prove the point that the state representing a certain language majority if it wants can effectively suppress the language as part of national identity.
A closer parallel with Ruthenian would be if speakers of the Närpiö dialect in Finland (known to be very different from standard Swedish, possibly further from Swedish than Danish or Norwegian) identified specifically with this dialect, not with standard Swedish. Sweden would probably still feel some responsibility towards Närpiö dialect speakers, but I doubt it would be the same relationship that they have with Finland Swedish, i.e., the Finnish form of standard Swedish.
What steps did Russia take to try to protect Ruthenian spoken outside its borders?however hard Russia ( or an independent Ukraine, it it existed then) would have tried to save Ruthenian (and they did try) they could only succeed by war ..
I'm not an expert on this matter, but the recent history between Russia and the Baltic states seems quite a bit rockier than the recent history between Finland and Sweden, or between Finnish and Swedish speakers in Finland. And it's not clear to me that the current status of Swedish in Finland isn't making the situation *more* tense than it otherwise would be.Noral wrote:Of course parallels are always questionable, but human society develops in accordance with certain laws ( even if we do not know all of them, or tend to misunderstand those that we may know). if you want an example from 21 century buy yourself a ticket and go to Tallinn. there is a Russian language minority there that draws support from the neighboring Russia ( so there is internet, radio, TV - all in Russian ). but sometimes I am just ready to weep when I read documents written by younger Russian people in Estonia- this a direct result of nationalistic position of the Estonian government. same thing happens in Latvia.
I may be wrong, but I would guess he was referring to the change that happened over the course of the 19th (and perhaps early 20th) century, wherein Swedish stopped being the default language of learning and social advancement in Finland.Noral wrote:to start with - when did that happen that Finnish demolished Swedish hegemony?
Again, how specifically does it allow them to do this, in such a way that any attempt to change the status of Swedish would be detrimental? What factor will be disrupted if Finnish speakers no longer have an obligation to learn Swedish, and Swedish speakers who can already fluently speak and read Finnish stop seeing Swedish versions of every official document?Noral wrote: it has so far and I hope that they will keep on succeeding. as I pointed out earlier , Finland has managed to create a unique system relating to the language minority. it is balanced and it works for both sides. it allows swedes to keep a separate but specifically Finnish identity ( most of them dig for the Finnish hokey team when Sweden plays Finland). That they consider themselves local people , there is a very specific feeling among them to the Finnish state, especially since the times when they fought together for the country.