Finnish heritage and translating a letter

[Shadow24v]

Hello all!

I am working on my family's genealogy (I am 1/4 Finnish) and have come across a handwritten letter from my great-grandfather regarding a pocket watch my father inherited. As my great-grandfather and great-grandmother were both 100% Finnish, the letter is written in Finnish. Unfortunately, I do not know much Finnish at all (spoken or written but for a few words and names), and have tried my best to transcribe and translate the letter via such services as Google translate. This has given me a gist of what the letter says, but since this was written probably 50+ years ago, I suspect that some of the wording has changed over time and I don't trust Google translate about as far as I can throw it. I am hoping I can collaborate with someone on this forum to assist me in rendering a more accurate translation of the letter, while learning more about the Finnish language in the process.

[007]

Hello all!

I am working on my family's genealogy (I am 1/4 Finnish) and have come across a handwritten letter from my great-grandfather regarding a pocket watch my father inherited. As my great-grandfather and great-grandmother were both 100% Finnish, the letter is written in Finnish. Unfortunately, I do not know much Finnish at all (spoken or written but for a few words and names), and have tried my best to transcribe and translate the letter via such services as Google translate. This has given me a gist of what the letter says, but since this was written probably 50+ years ago, I suspect that some of the wording has changed over time and I don't trust Google translate about as far as I can throw it. I am hoping I can collaborate with someone on this forum to assist me in rendering a more accurate translation of the letter, while learning more about the Finnish language in the process.

with google translate, you might now know the nature of the letter that can or cannot be disclosed to public. If you feel that its content can be disclosed, simply scan the letter and put it here. You will get more volunteers... and in the process, you will get a whole new topic for discussion on Finnish language

[Shadow24v]

Thanks! The letter is innocuous enough, posting it shouldn't be an issue. I will also post the approximate transcription I have been able to decipher, albeit with some words most likely misspelled... There are some names in the letter I know for certain, so that should help as well.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9sQoF ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9sQoF ... sp=sharing


Leo is my Grandmothers brother, and the letter was written by my great-grandfather, Lauri Waldamar Korpineimi.

Approximate transcription: {WARNING: misspellings and guessing at words ahead...}

Dear Leo,

Siitta jonhan kellon asiasta, mita mina tiedon siitta, niin sen alkuperainen omistaja on ollut minun isoisa minun isani isa. Matti Matinpoinka Kiviranta, jos hoin on sen ostanut niin se on tapahtunut noin 1820. Mutta hoin on voinut sen soata myoskin is attoan niin siinna tapaukses. Se se on vanhempi minun ei tullut kysyttya isalta, oliko hanen isa ostanut sen kellut tai saanut perintona ja nyt ei sita enaa kukaan tieta. Tuossa ajattelin etta kylla met olemme koko eanhoa sukua. Meidan suku toakse pain menee aina euoteen 1540 josta asti on kiyan pitoa pitetty. nosijaruen rannalla moin 30km Tampereetta on Kiviranta niminen perinto talo. perinto talo mienoa etta se on mennyt perintone isatte pojalle. Yankin poika aina sai tolon noin tama Kiviranta on allut samon suoure halleussa sitten 1540 minun ise on syntynyt jo kosuanut. Siella han on syntynyt 10/24/1853, kuollut 3/8/1907 Kaarlo Adolf Matinpoika Sorri. Sorri numen han sai, hun meni naimisiin sorrin nimisen talon tyttaren kanssa naimisiin ja muutti sinne. Mina olen syntynyt siella 2/12/1893 jo tuttut yhtys eottoin 6/3/1911 aloguet, mina minun iso isalla ou kobse poika. Vanhin kustaa joke peri kivirannan jo Kaarlo minuen isa joke mutti sorrille. Nykysei kivirannan omistaneet ovai Kustoa Matinpoika tyttaren lapsei. Sinun pikku serkkujos minulla on kaikkien numei jotka ovat olleet isantina jo omistaneet Kivirannon ja mina euosina jalheen 1540 jos holuat soeta nei tietoos niin nei on tosiie. Saimne Sunte koko payon November 28 - 29 paiva jo ole kylmin poiua 18 olepuolen nollan, mutta muutta lampimoka Sano terveiseni theemolee.

Dad

[jahasjahas]

I understood about 97% of the scanned letter but have some pancakes to bake at the moment. I'm sure we'll figure it out together.

[Shadow24v]

jahasjahas - Thanks for taking the time to look at the letter, 97% is further than I got in translation. I have been told that one of the names, "Kiviranta", meant "a point of land jutting into a lake" or something like it, and "Sorri" was one of the farms that some of my ancestors lived on. According to my father, the original family name was Korpineimi. It was later shortened to Korpi, and upon immigration to the United States, was Americanized to "Corby", which was my grandmother's maiden name. I do also have that my grandmother's parents were Lauri and Lempi.

I am going to look into the sentence structure of Finnish, as it appears to differ a good bit from the normal American English structure. Another language on the eventual "I want to learn" list

[jahasjahas]

Dear Leo,

Siitä vanhan kellon asiasta. Mitä minä tiedän siitä, niin sen alkuperäinen omistaja on ollut minun isoisä, minun isäni isä Matti Matinpoika Kiviranta. Jos hän on sen ostanut niin se on tapahtunut noin 1820. Mutta hän on voinut sen saada myöskin isältään, niin siinä tapauksessa se on vanhempi. Minun ei tullut kysyttyä isältä, oliko hänen isä ostanut sen kellon tai saanut perintönä, ja nyt ei sitä enää kukaan tiedä. Tuossa ajattelin, että kyllä me olemme koko vanhaa sukua. Meidän suku taakse päin menee aina vuoteen 1540 josta asti on kirjanpitoa pidetty. Näsijärven rannalla noin 30 km Tampereelta on Kiviranta-niminen perintötalo. Perintötalo meinaa, että se on mennyt perintönä isältä pojalle. Vanhin poika aina sai talon. Näin tämä Kiviranta on ollut saman suvun hallussa sitten 1540. Minun isä on syntynyt ja kasvanut siellä. Hän on syntynyt 10/24/1853, kuollut 3/8/1907, Kaarlo Adolf Matinpoika Sorri. Sorri-nimen hän sai, kun meni naimisiin Sorrin nimisen talon tyttären kanssa (the second erroneous "naimisiin" has been crossed out) ja muutti sinne. Minä olen syntynyt siellä 2/12/1893 ja tullut Yhdysvaltoihin 6/3/1911 Cloquet, Maine. Minun isoisällä oli kaksi poikaa. Vanhin, Kustaa, joka peri Kivirannan, ja Kaarlo, minun isä, joka muutti Sorrille. Nykyiset Kivirannan omistajat ovat Kustaa Matinpojan tyttären lapset. Sinun pikkuserkkujasi. Minulla on kaikkien nimet, jotka ovat olleet isäntinä ja omistaneet Kivirannan ja minä vuosina jälkeen 1540. Jos haluat saada ne tietoosi niin ne on täällä. Saimme lunta koko paljon November 28 - 29 päivä, ja oli kylmin päivä, 18 alapuolen nollan, mutta muuttui lämpimäksi. Sano terveiseni Thelmalle.

Dad

I added some punctuation and split some sentences to make it more readable, and combined some compound nouns.

There are some dialectal words and spellings. He uses "koko" for "hyvin", as well as "met" for "me" and "net" for "ne". He also used some t's in places where the standard language uses a d, but I replaced them.

I'll translate it tomorrow if someone else hasn't already.

[Jukka Aho]

Dear Leo,

Siitä vanhan kellon asiasta. Mitä minä tiedän siitt, niin sen alkuperäinen omistaja on ollut minun isoisä, minun isäni isä Matti Matinpoika Kiviranta. Jos hän on sen ostanut niin se on tapahtunut noin 1820. Mutta hän on voinut sen saada myöskin isältään, niin siinä tapauksessa se on vanhempi. Minun ei tullut kysyttyä isältä, oliko hänen isä ostanut sen kellon tai saanut perintönä, ja nyt ei sitä enää kukaan tiedä. Tuossa ajattelin, että kyllä me olemme koko vanhaa sukua. Meidän suku taakse päin menee aina vuoteen 1540 josta asti on kirjanpitoa pidetty. Näsijärven rannalla noin 30km Tampereelta on Kiviranta niminen perintötalo. Perintötalo meinaa, että se on mennyt perintonä isältä pojalle. Vanhin poika aina sai talon. Näin tämä Kiviranta on ollut saman suvun hallussa sitten 1540. Minun isä on syntynyt ja kasvanut siellä. Hän on syntynyt 10/24/1853, kuollut 3/8/1907, Kaarlo Adolf Matinpoika Sorri. Sorri-nimen hän sai, kun meni naimisiin Sorrin nimisen talon tyttären kanssa (naimisiin (the second erroneous "naimisiin" has been crossed out)) ja muutti sinne. Minä olen syntynyt siellä 2/12/1893 ja tullut Yhdysvaltoihin 6/3/1911 Cloquet, Maine. Minun isoisällä oli kaksi poikaa. Vanhin, Kustaa, joka peri Kivirannan, ja Kaarlo, minun isä, joke muutti Sorrille. Nykyiset Kivirannan omistajat ovat Kustaa Matinpojan tyttären lapset. Sinun pikkuserkkujasi. Minulla on kaikkien nimet, jotka ovat olleet isäntinä ja omistaneet Kivirannan ja minä vuosina jälkeen 1540. Jos haluat saada ne tietoos niin ne on täällä. Saimme lunta koko paljon November 28 - 29 päivä, ja oli kylmin päivä, 18 alapuolen nollan, mutta muuttui lämpimäksi. Sano terveiseni Thelmalle.

Dad

Dear Leo,

Concerning the matter of the old watch. As far as I know, the original owner was my grandfather; my father’s father, Matti Matinpoika Kiviranta. If it actually was him who bought it, that event took place ca. 1820. But it is also possible he might have gotten it from his father, in which case it is older still. I never came to ask my father whether his father bought the watch [himself] or if he inherited it, and now there’s no-one left who would know.

The other day I was thinking we are really quite an old family. Our family lineage goes back all the way to the year 1540, which is when they started keeping records. There’s an ancestral house [farm?] called Kiviranta, located by the lake Näsijärvi, approximately 30 kilometers from Tampere. An “ancestral house” means it has been passed forward as an inheritance from father to son. It was always the eldest son who got the house to himself. This is how the Kiviranta house has remained in the possession of the same family ever since 1540.

My father was born and bred there. He was born on October 24th, 1853, and he passed away on August 3rd, 1907, [his name was] Kaarlo Adolf Matinpoika Sorri. The name Sorri originates from a house [family farm] by the same name, which had a daughter that he married, and wherein he then moved to live in. I was born there on February 12th, 1893, and I immigrated to The United States on July 3rd, 1911 (Cloquet, Maine.)

My grandfather had two sons. Kustaa, the eldest one, who inherited the Kiviranta house, and Kaarlo, my father, who moved to the Sorri house.

The current owners of the Kiviranta house are the offspring of Kustaa Matinpoika’s daughter, [so they’re] your second cousins. I have a list of the names of all those persons who have held the custody of the Kiviranta house, and in which years, starting from 1540. If you’re interested, you can get that information from me.

It snowed a lot from November 28th to 29th, and it was the coldest day, 18 [degrees] below zero, but then it got warm again. Tell my greetings to Thelma.


Some notes:

Matinpoika = “Matti’s son”, “son-of-Matti”
Kiviranta = (literally:) “Rocky Shore”, “Rocky Bank”, or “Rocky Beach”; (even more literally:) “Rockshore”/“Rockbank”/“Rockbeach” or “Stoneshore”/“Stonebank”/“Stonebeach”

[Shadow24v]

All, Many thanks for the translation! I was fairly certain that there were things I wouldn't understand (dialectal differences) that were throwing off my attempts to translate the letter.

That is quite the letter I have here apparently, and my father will be happy to know what it actually says. I will see if he has that information Lauri mentioned regarding family names back to the 1540's, but I don't harbor much hope that the information is still around these many years later. I eventually would love to visit Finland and the Kiviranta area, possibly meeting some distant cousins, but that may not be for some years.

[Jukka Aho]

I have been told that one of the names, "Kiviranta", meant "a point of land jutting into a lake" or something like it, and "Sorri" was one of the farms that some of my ancestors lived on. According to my father, the original family name was Korpineimi. It was later shortened to Korpi, and upon immigration to the United States, was Americanized to "Corby", which was my grandmother's maiden name. I do also have that my grandmother's parents were Lauri and Lempi.

As you can see from my previous post, the description you got for the name “Kiviranta” is a bit off. However, it fits the word niemi, which you could also translate as ‘cape’ (not the garment but the geographical formation), ‘headland’, or ‘promontory’.

The word korpi means ‘backwoods’, ‘wilderness’, ‘damp woodland with lots of spruce and birch trees’, ‘coniferous swamp’.

So the name “Korpiniemi” means “a point of land jutting into a lake” (a cape, headland, or promontory, that is) located somewhere in the backwoods, or containing vegetation you commonly see in a coniferous swamp, or likely both. “Cape Wilderness”, “Woodland Head”, or something like that if you’d like to translate it.

The given name “Lempi” has a meaning as well: it is another word for ‘love’. But it sounds a bit quaint now and is rarely used any longer, either as a proper name or a generic noun.

There are genealogy sites, online archives of Church records etc. both in Finland and in the United States which might be able to help you with the task of finding out the details of your family tree.

I am going to look into the sentence structure of Finnish, as it appears to differ a good bit from the normal American English structure. Another language on the eventual "I want to learn" list :D

The sentence structure of Finnish is quite free-form as you can tell your subjects and objects (and verbalized nouns, and nominalized verbs) apart from each other by their grammatical case, or ending. So the order is not all that critical. But deviating from the norm (which is S-V-O) often adds an emphasis of some sort or makes the sentence sound “poetic” or “biblical”... so there’s that.

The language also has a mechanism whereby you can compact subordinate clauses into noun phrases — conveniently making them part of the main clause while simultaneously increasing its information density and (parsing) complexity — which often throws off someone new to the language.

[jahasjahas]

I think I found the correct Kiviranta (also known as Kuoranta) and Sorri areas in Tampere (previously the municipality of Teisko, which became a part of the city of Tampere in 1972). Here's a custom Google Maps map: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit? ... fBa3xz5txQ

At some point, there has been both an Iso-Kiviranta (major Kiviranta) and a Vähä-Kiviranta (lesser Kiviranta) house in the area.

The Finnish Cultural Foundation has owned a Kiviranta house in Teisko, but all I could find was that they have appealed to the government for monetary aid to renovate the house in 2000. I couldn't access the actual appeal document, unfortunately.

The local Teisko-Seura association has a museum. Some of the Kiviranta buildings owned by the Finnish Cultural Foundation have been moved there. The museum's current main building was a house for guests at the Iso-Kiviranta house (where it was originally moved from Vähä-Kiviranta, possibly). These granary buildings were moved from one of the Kiviranta houses too.

This person, Jukka Lamminmäki, has done some genealogy work that includes some of your relatives. Hanna Kustaantytär Rekola was his great-grandmother. If I understood the family tree correctly, Hanna had a son out of wedlock with your great-grandfather's brother, Kalle Kallenpoika Sorri. (Note that Kalle is a nickname for Kaarle, so Kalle Adolf Matinpoika Sorri = Kaarle Adolf Matinpoika Sorri.)

Carolus "Kalle" Sorri was hanged for a theft that occurred in the Teisko church in 1706. He plead not guilty. I'm sorry for your loss

[CH]

You might also want to reach out to any family association (Finnish: sukuseura) related to your family. This one is for Sorris in Rautalampi area, which is in the middle of Finland, but they do mention the Teisko area Sorris (that would be you, I assume) in their history page and that there are some genealogy work done and a book.

The Genealogy Society of Finland is scanning old church books into a searchable database. Not all books have been scanned yet, though. They also have a nice forum.

[onkko]

I will see if he has that information Lauri mentioned regarding family names back to the 1540's, but I don't harbor much hope that the information is still around these many years later. I eventually would love to visit Finland and the Kiviranta area, possibly meeting some distant cousins, but that may not be for some years.

Well well well, since churcbooks said "blah" what is what happened in 1500s everything is registered and available. If those didnt vanish in wars and seems not. If you look "new" registers everyone, and i mean everyone, is registered and every new register tells older happenings. There could be gap but youll find old from churchbooks.
They didint lie, jahasjahas and others told what you can find online.

As told info seems to be there.

And all of finns are registered since 100y ago and land since ages ago

Maasta sinä olet tullut ja minun maarekisteriksi olet sinä tuleva

Dont give up, well if you want to claim ownership then do but if yuo want to find relatives then no.