how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

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skparallax
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how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by skparallax » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:21 pm

I know how it is in singular: Salli istuu tuolilla.

but if I wanna say about 2 persons who sit on their own chairs, how should I use the word "tuoli" in plural?

"Salli ja Pekka istuvat (..?)"

thanks

how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

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onkko
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by onkko » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:09 pm

Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleillaan.
Thats if they "own" their chairs or definite chair is pointed for them.

Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleilla.
Generic chair, not owned, just sitting in random chair.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


skparallax
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by skparallax » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:27 pm

onkko wrote:Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleillaan.
Thats if they "own" their chairs or definite chair is pointed for them.

Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleilla.
Generic chair, not owned, just sitting in random chair.

thanks
actually i meant 2nd example - "Generic chair, not owned, just sitting in random chair."

and could you please tell me what is the grammar did you use to change "-i" in the word tuoli to "-ei-" in the word tuoleilla?
what the grammar case did you use here?


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onkko
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by onkko » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:48 pm

skparallax wrote:
onkko wrote:Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleillaan.
Thats if they "own" their chairs or definite chair is pointed for them.

Salli ja Pekka istuivat tuoleilla.
Generic chair, not owned, just sitting in random chair.

thanks
actually i meant 2nd example - "Generic chair, not owned, just sitting in random chair."

and could you please tell me what is the grammar did you use to change "-i" in the word tuoli to "-ei-" in the word tuoleilla?
what the grammar case did you use here?


I dont know grammar, im just native :)
I hope someone who can explain will explain.
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


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Pursuivant
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by Pursuivant » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:49 pm

Well, its a plural. Otherwise they'd be sitting on the same chair.
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."


Rekkari
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by Rekkari » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:11 am

and could you please tell me what is the grammar did you use to change "-i" in the word tuoli to "-ei-" in the word tuoleilla?
what the grammar case did you use here?


To form the plural of the local cases you just add the case ending (-lla/-llä, -sta/-stä, -sta/-stä, etc.) to a stem which you'll need to determine.

The stem is obtained from the partitive plural of the word and is affected by so-called kpt changes that may have occurred in the genitive singular. So it's helpful if you already know the partitive and genitive forms of the word and are familiar with weak vs. strong consonant gradation. The stem will always end in the plural marker 'i' (a 'j' from the partitive plural gets changed to an 'i' ).

Here are some examples:

Words with strong grade in the genitive singular or no consonant gradation at all use the stem as is:
tuoli -> tuoleja -> tuolei- >>> tuoleilla
ahdas -> ahtaita -> ahtai- >>> ahtaissa
sana -> sanoja -> sanoi- >>> sanoilla

In words with weak grade in the genitive singular the stem is weakened (same gradation as the genitive singular):
koti -> koteja -> kotei -> kodei- >>> kodeille
halpa -> halpoja -> halpoi -> halvoi- >>> halvoilta
katu -> katuja -> katui -> kadui- >>> kaduilla
pöytä -> pöytiä -> pöyti -> pöydi- >>> pöydissä

The illative ('into' case) is the same as the singular but the seen ending become siin: huone -> huoneita -> huonei- >>> huoneisiin

Simple, huh? :)


Rob A.
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by Rob A. » Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:31 am

The key to getting this stuff right is remembering to forget about how it is done in English ...;)

First, surprisingly perhaps, tuoli is actually a bit difficult to explain....but I'll try.

The starting point is that the nominative word form does NOT supply the basic word stem, the genitive supplies the basic word stem. Though, as will come clear from my explanation below, in the case of the word, tuoli, the nominative form and the genitive stem are the same.

Here are a couple of links:

http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suo ... aloen.html

http://users.jyu.fi/~pamakine/kieli/suo ... eluen.html

These links will make it clear how Finnish words take on plural endings with various case endings, singular and plural.

The word, tuoli, despite its appearance, is actually not originally a Finnish word, it is a well-Finnicized word that originally came from Swedish and so the rules get warped a bit..... one of the links explains that with words like, tuoli, which has the genitive stem, tuoli-, you need to change the i to e, then add the plural form of the case ending....

[Edit: Oh, yes, and don't forget than in same situations...not here, though...consonant gradation will be a factor to bring into the process...]


Rekkari
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by Rekkari » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:31 am

First, surprisingly perhaps, tuoli is actually a bit difficult to explain....


Not difficult, really, if one uses the partitive plural to obtain the stem: tuoli -> tuoleja -> tuolei- >>> tuoleilla

Now how does one know the partitive plural of tuoli? Why is it tuoleja and not tuolia?

I know because, back in the day, I learned the partitive (singular and plural) and genitive forms along with the basic form, and how to recognize the various paradigms. I see tuoli, recognize it as a bussi type word, and tuolia, tuolin, tuoleja immediately come to mind. ALL other cases can be formed from these four without much mental juggling. And after awhile, the right endings along with the kpt changes just start sounding correct and word formation comes naturally without really thinking about it.


skparallax
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Re: how to translate "Salli and Pekka sit on chairs"

Post by skparallax » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:46 pm

thank you all of you guys who replied to my post
there are tones of new info for me, so now I need time to learn it :D


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