Quantifiers

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Kembreg
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Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:36 pm

Quantifiers

Post by Kembreg » Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:11 pm

I looked around at various resources to find various ways to quantify nouns in Finnish.

I put together the list below:

a couple of books : pari kirjoja
a few books : harvat kirjoja
all of the books : kaikki kirjoja
each book : jokainen kirja
enough books : tarpeeksi kirjoja
enough books : kylliksi kirjoja
many books : monta kirjaa
many books : moni kirjoja
many books : paljon kirjoja
several books : useita kirjoja
too many books : liian monta kirjaa
too many books : liian moni kirjoja
too many books : liian paljon kirjoja

I was really unsure of when to use the plural or the singular etc.
If there are any errors in the list, please let me know.

Thanks!

Kembreg



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Jukka Aho
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Quantifiers

Post by Jukka Aho » Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:55 pm

Kembreg wrote:If there are any errors in the list, please let me know.
OK, here goes:
Kembreg wrote:a couple of books : pari kirjoja
pari kirjaa
Kembreg wrote:a few books : harvat kirjoja
muutama kirja

Then again, "few books", without the article, could be translated as harva kirja.

"Few books can make a credible claim to change your life."
Harva kirja voi (uskottavasti) väittää muuttavansa lukijan elämän.

The original English uses the plural form, but Finnish prefers the singular in such expressions. (Also, it is not customary in Finnish texts to address the reader directly in the second person. Finnish tends to use passive expressions, or more general subjects. Hence, lukijan elämän rather than sinun elämäsi.)

Although if you insist, you could say harvat kirjat:

Harvat kirjat voivat...
Kembreg wrote:all of the books : kaikki kirjoja
kaikkia kirjoja
kaikki kirjat
Kembreg wrote:each book : jokainen kirja
enough books : tarpeeksi kirjoja
enough books : kylliksi kirjoja
many books : monta kirjaa
Correct.
Kembreg wrote:many books : moni kirjoja
monia kirjoja
monet kirjat

(See here as well.)
Kembreg wrote:many books : paljon kirjoja
several books : useita kirjoja
too many books : liian monta kirjaa
Correct.
Kembreg wrote:too many books : liian moni kirjoja
liian monia kirjoja
Kembreg wrote:too many books : liian paljon kirjoja
Correct.
znark


Kembreg
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:36 pm

Re: Quantifiers

Post by Kembreg » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:35 pm

Jukka,

Thanks for your help.

What is the difference between "muutama kirja" and "muutamia kirjoja"

Thanks!

Kembreg


Jukka Aho
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:46 am
Location: Espoo, Finland

Re: Quantifiers

Post by Jukka Aho » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:16 am

Kembreg wrote:What is the difference between "muutama kirja" and "muutamia kirjoja"
No practical difference, just another way to express the same thing.

If you want to stretch it the latter maybe gives slightly more focus on there being these individual books whereas the former treats them more as a collection. But that’s a really subtle difference. Most natives couldn’t tell you why they chose one over the other and it doesn’t really matter.
znark


AldenG
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Re: Quantifiers

Post by AldenG » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:02 am

Kembreg wrote:Jukka,

Thanks for your help.

What is the difference between "muutama kirja" and "muutamia kirjoja"

Thanks!

Kembreg
It's analogous to the difference between "many men" and "many a man," although the word is different (muutama/moni) and Finnish tends to the singular while English tends to the plural form.

I'm not aware of an English construction in the style of (x) few a man, but "a man or two" comes somewhat close.

("Few a man," if it existed, would actually be harva mies. "It's a rare man who... Rare is the man who..." The next day I still can't think how to do muutama in singular in English. "A few" is still more than one, and quite different from "few" without the article.)
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


AldenG
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Re: Quantifiers

Post by AldenG » Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:18 pm

"The odd..." might work for a singular muutama. The beach appeared deserted save for the odd angler. Rannalla ei näkynyt ketään paitsi muutama kalastaja. That refers to several fishermen, though the mischievous (and you know who you are by now) might argue that the English refers to a single omituinen kalastaja.

So what's going on with nominative vs partitive in Rannalla ei näkynyt ketään paitsi muutama kalastaja ?

On the one hand, it's always [ja] sitä paitsi... (in partitive). On the other, when you search people's usage, in this construct the verb usually appears to determine the case: en vihaa ketään paitsi tuota miestä; siellä ei ollut ketään paitsi Jenna; en nähnyt ketään paitsi vartijan -- partitive, nominative, accusative. So you can find the case by rewriting the sentence as Rannalla ei näkynyt ketään, paitsi että muutama kalastaja näkyi. The influence of "ei" ends at "ketään," broken by paitsi, and the rest is treated as a positive sentence with the same verb.

Apparently.

Of course when you change to grammatical plural, the usual partitive incursions begin to appear.
As he persisted, I was obliged to tootle him gently at first and then, seeing no improvement, to trumpet him vigorously with my horn.


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onkko
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Re: Quantifiers

Post by onkko » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:08 am

Ine ela illa, ade abla alla but not when verb. @#$%! No wonder im not good at languages :D
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


Rob A.
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:51 am

Re: Quantifiers

Post by Rob A. » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:59 pm

onkko wrote:Ine ela illa, ade abla alla but not when verb. @#$%! No wonder im not good at languages :D
Plus..."tra" and "ess"... :) The locative cases, but I suppose it could be argued that the translative and the essive are locative cases by default. The locative cases are not the toughest cases to deal with...a lot of it seems to depend on memory more than anything.... and, I suppose, understanding the perspective used by native speakers.

Much tougher, as here, is figuring out the nuances of the partitive case and, at least for me, the even more complicated genitive case...heck, sometimes you don't even realize that the word you are looking at, despite appearances is not in the genitive.... I suspect effectively using the genitive case in all its subtlety will allow one to almost pass as a native speaker.


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