Difficulties?

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FinnGuyHelsinki
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Difficulties?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:06 am

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/art-1 ... 23537.html

The most common that I've heard is definitely the "ng", and not only in Finnish, many English speakers, native and non-native, sound (to my Finnish ear) like they're saying e.g. "everythink" as opposed to "everything". IIRC the movie Raja 1918, in order to test whether someone was Finnish or Russian at the border, they asked the person to say "kyllä".



Difficulties?

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onkko
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by onkko » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:28 pm

Whats your real question, its common knowledge that non finns do have problems with finnish. I do know how "find out" who is from where but what you do want to know?
"ehhehe russians says hjuva instead of hyvä".....
Caesare weold Graecum, ond Caelic Finnum


Rob A.
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Rob A. » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:29 pm

The version I heard was that it was the word, yksi...apparently that "y" is a real tongue twister for a Russian speaker.

We had an exchange on this some years ago...OMG... seven years ago!!!...it seems like yesterday:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28627&start=15

Shibboleths have been used by humans since, well, literally since Jesus rode the dinosaurs....

Tuomarien kirja
12. Luku

5. Ja gileadilaiset valtasivat efraimilaisten tieltä Jordanin kahlauspaikat. Kun sitten Efraimin pakolaiset sanoivat: Antakaa minun mennä yli, kysyivät Gileadin miehet kultakin: Oletko efraimilainen? Jos hän vastasi: En,
6. niin he sanoivat hänelle: Sano 'shibbolet'. Jos hän sanoi sibbolet, kun ei osannut ääntää oikein, ottivat he hänet kiinni ja tappoivat Jordanin kahlauspaikoilla. Niin kaatui silloin Efraimista neljäkymmentä kaksi tuhatta.


...and probably they have been used since the days of the Neanderthals.

The chances that a non-native speaker can ever speak another language without some telltale, is probably somewhere close to zero....maybe the rare idiot savant can do it....


FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:33 am

onkko wrote:Whats your real question, its common knowledge that non finns do have problems with finnish. I do know how "find out" who is from where but what you do want to know?
"ehhehe russians says hjuva instead of hyvä".....
There's no question. Just the link and my words.


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Cory
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Cory » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:15 am

FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
(to my Finnish ear)
Aren't you Australian?
Image


FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:44 am

Cory wrote:
FinnGuyHelsinki wrote:
(to my Finnish ear)
Aren't you Australian?
Isn't everyone? One example of "ng"/"nk" would be Anthea Turner, as seen/heard on Dinner Party Wars TV-series. http://www.foodnetwork.ca/shows/Dinner-Party-Wars/


Rosamunda
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Rosamunda » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:36 pm

I don't think I have any huge problems with the consonant sounds even though they have different quality compared to English eg the Finnish /p/ is quite different to the same sound in English (compare the initial p in the Finnish word "puut" to the initial p in the English word "put" - very different). And the /ŋ/ sound exists in English (even though mispronounced by some natives), so not really an issue.

For me it's the vowels sounds that are more challenging in words like "ryijy", which is a mouthful, and remembering to hold on to the double vowels long enough.


FinnGuyHelsinki
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by FinnGuyHelsinki » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:44 pm

^^ I agree, after all it's about being understood, which due to mis-pronunciation almost never is an issue (with European languages).


Rekkari
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Rekkari » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:18 pm

...and remembering to hold on to the double vowels long enough.
And then there's them (!) nonuple vowel clusters: hääyöaieuutinen :lol:


Jukka Aho
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:53 pm

Rosamunda wrote:I don't think I have any huge problems with the consonant sounds even though they have different quality compared to English eg the Finnish /p/ is quite different to the same sound in English (compare the initial p in the Finnish word "puut" to the initial p in the English word "put" - very different).
The difference, I think, is mostly that of aspiration. Or lack of thereof in Finnish. Which also means native Finnish speakers who have never figured out this difference themselves nor been taught to aspirate their k’s, p’s and t’s when speaking English will pronounce them in a too soft/dry way.
znark


Rekkari
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Rekkari » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:02 pm

...native Finnish speakers who have never figured out this difference themselves nor been taught to aspirate their k’s, p’s and t’s when speaking English will pronounce them in a too soft/dry way.
Very true. I often have noticed that Finns, when speaking English, sort of swallow those aspirated letters: Pepsi comes out sort of like Bebsi.

And it works the other way, too. As a native English speaker, I tend to over aspirate my k's, p's, and t's when speaking Finnish (so I'm told). I suppose it's just part of my accent. I remember reading somewhere in the distant past that I should practice correct kpt pronunciation by holding a tissue in front of my mouth while saying "Appilan pappilan apupapin papupata..." until I could do it without the tissue moving. Never could get it to work. :lol:


Jukka Aho
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Re: Difficulties?

Post by Jukka Aho » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:29 pm

Rekkari wrote:Very true. I often have noticed that Finns, when speaking English, sort of swallow those aspirated letters: Pepsi comes out sort of like Bebsi.
Yes, the difference between a “p” and a “b” is pretty minuscule in Finnish. Not the least because the “b” sound only exists in certain loan words, so you do not have many practical situations where you would need to put in great effort to actively differentiate between the two letters/sounds.

On the other hand, in English, one of the main differentiating factors is the aspiration... which is of course missing from a typical Finnish accent to begin with. So it’s probably rather easy to hear the Finnish p’s as sort-of-like the English b’s.

But I also think English tends to favor a somewhat “wider” or “fuller” pronunciation of the “b” sound where you need to work your face muscles more than a native Finnish speaker normally would when pronouncing his b’s. The sound starts deeper in your throat and maybe resonates more in your mouth. Maybe you also put your lips together more firmly or at a greater width. Not a speech therapist, though, so I lack the proper terminology and training to accurately analyze and describe such things.
Rekkari wrote:And it works the other way, too. As a native English speaker, I tend to over aspirate my k's, p's, and t's when speaking Finnish (so I'm told). I suppose it's just part of my accent. I remember reading somewhere in the distant past that I should practice correct kpt pronunciation by holding a tissue in front of my mouth while saying "Appilan pappilan apupapin papupata..." until I could do it without the tissue moving. Never could get it to work. :lol:
That’s actually a pretty good advice... provided you are able to work out how to do it. :) Or maybe you could hold your hand near a native speaker’s mouth when they’re pronouncing those sounds, to gauge the strength of the puffs of air and compare them to your best effort... then try matching that level yourself.
znark


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